Gaza in America-would you move or fight?

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has come to be seen as the pivotal "swing" voting group that will determine future elections and future political power

I'm tired of the pivotal swing group saying. Whether it be gun owners, gays, christians, hispanics, minorities, amish, students, whatever.

It is just a way of coping with the loss, to say these =groups didn't support you like you expected.
 
I don't think what's happening in Gaza can happen here.

I can't understand why Palestinians and Jewish settlers cannot live in peace together on the same land and share it. I know we have our problems here between Hispanics and White Americans, but for the most part, we managed to get along with one another. May be Arabs and Jews can learn something called "Tolerance", instead of dwelling on hatred that has been around between both sides for literally thousands of years, since Sarah had Hagar and Ishmael banished to the land that's now northwestern Saudi Arabia.

To be honest, the Gaza pull-out will be one of those "Give 'em an inch they'll take a mile" type situations, because I'm still hearing rhetoric from Hamas on the news that imply it's their "first victory" in taking the land of Israel back and kicking Jews out.
 
May be Arabs and Jews can learn something called "Tolerance", instead of dwelling on hatred that has been around between both sides for literally thousands of years
uhhhhhh, maybe it has something to do with the Arabs regularly blowing up Israeli women and children....ya think? :confused:
 
I don't think what's happening in Gaza can happen here.

It's already happening. Why do you think Southern Californians are moving out? "Mexico" already has de facto control of Greater Los Angeles, especially if you include both their native and legal immgrant allies. The "legacy" taxpayers are locked into subsidizing the influx while watching their property and sales taxes constantly rising to pay for this amazing social transformation.

What might trigger a revolt? The repeal of Prop. XIII, which is probably inevitable. By then, though, it will be way too late.
 
What might trigger a revolt? The repeal of Prop. XIII, which is probably inevitable.
I hadn't thought of that possibility and I don't like it at all. It would most certainly be counterproductive; although it would increase revenue to local goverments in the short term. In the longer term, it would be punitive to property owners, especially the elderly. Property values would plummet in some areas as people cashed out and left.
 
And this is what's happening: those who can move--who aren't tied to what they think is a good job--are leaving or considering leaving. That will eventually hurt the tax base and when you combine the increasing hunger for government monies with a declining tax base you get Trouble.

One reason for a "Kelo phenomenon" in California would be to get rid of all the long-term property owners still paying property taxes at a "low" rate. Get them to sell, one way or another, and you can re-appraise at a much higher base.
 
The Gaza in America analogy is flawed. The analogy would be US settlements in Mexico. Gaza is not the same as Judea and Samaria. It's 99.999% Palestinian and I don't know any Israelis who seriously expected or wanted it to become part of Israel. The settlements were small, isolated and difficult to defend. Pulling back and absolutely sealing off the strip makes sound tactical sense. It will now be much easier to target bombs on terrorirts. Though frankly more Pals will likely die trying to claim the abandoned settlements than Israel has ever killed there. The place is a stinking, infested hole.
 
I don't know any Israelis who seriously expected or wanted it to become part of Israel. The settlements were small, isolated and difficult to defend. Pulling back and absolutely sealing off the strip makes sound tactical sense.

that and, starting with Preacherman, what others have been saying.

it was a ridiculous situation to begin with, and maybe now things will get better.

better analogy what if a bunch of US citizens started building houses just over the Mexcian border, lived there, but still were protected by US cops, taxes, etc.

it wouldnt work out well.

i am sad to see quotes of people calling this a pogrom, etc. it is not. it is unfortunate the people were allowed to live there this long, it has caused nothing but problems.

the Israelis i have talked to (one friend just went back last week)
are in favor of the withdrawl.
 
Holding Gaza makes a great military defense strategy. They held it because it made tactical sense at the time.

Now hamas is even closer to that part of mainland Israel. Expect mortars and rockets to be hitting Israel whenever they feel the need.
 
Unfortunately, this takes no account of the several thousand years of history since that time, and ignores international politics and hard reality.

I missed the part where Gods word was subject to international politics and hard reality.

When was the last time you read Joshua 1?
 
What Isreal did there is called, "Ethnic Cleansing"

It's like the US moving all the white people out of Philadelphia.

Ethnic Cleansing. Giving in to Religious/Racist Bigotry.

I predict that soon Isreal will have to whack the whole area.

Then No Problemo.
 
Now hamas is even closer to that part of mainland Israel. Expect mortars and rockets to be hitting Israel whenever they feel the need.

Hamas has been doing that all along, this changes nothing. The settlements in Gaza added nothing to Israel's security nor did they give the IDF any leg up on the terrorists. They merely exposed more Israelis to attack moving back and forth, and gave Israel more to worry about. You seem to think the settlements were broad buffer zones. They weren't. For the most part they were little trailer parks isolated from Israel and each other. They were nothing like the huge Jewish cities that have grown up in Judea and Samaria.

Look at the DMZ in Korea. Are our troops in a better position on the line or back in mobile, tank-heavy units back in South Korea? Obviously, as a tactical matter they are 100 times better back away from the line. The North Koreans have had fifty years to train artillery on our static positions. Putting 30,000 men there never made any military sense. It was a POLITICAL statement and a very cold-blooded guarantee that at least ten thousand US troops would die the instant war started with the north, thus guaranteeing strong US involvement in the war.

The same with the Gaza settlements. They were political statements with no strategic importance. This is not the Golan Heights, after all. These were not artillery batteries on high points--they were towns with women and children who would be the first to die in a war with Egypt.
 
May be Arabs and Jews can learn something called "Tolerance", instead of dwelling on hatred that has been around between both sides for literally thousands of years.
Ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

pax

The Jews and Arabs should settle their disputes in the true spirit of Christian charity. -- Alexander Wiley
 
"Hamas has been doing that all along, this changes nothing. The settlements in Gaza added nothing to Israel's security nor did they give the IDF any leg up on the terrorists...."
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I don't think so, Cosmoline.

Controlling Gaza allowed Israel to deal with arms smuggling to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the rest of them. She could have been a lot more aggressive and efficient at this, but that is Israel's main problem. She gives too much weight to "world opinion" and the "international community". You know, those wonderful folks who treated Jews so well for 1970 years. And then finally the holocaust.

Her current generation have reverted to the "galut" (diaspora) mentality of the Jews in Europe, who were so beaten down that they hardly fought back. (Truth is that a significant few fought back heroically, but most did not.)

It's sort of like getting rich in America: shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations. The original Zionists were those who had suffered the "love" of the Europeans. They understood why the Jews had to regain their own nation. They were determined and they eventually succeeded. Reading their history is incredibly inspiring. I know of no other story like it.


Their grand-children don't want to fight, anymore. They are more interested in their standard of living and in aping the American culture. The Zionists have had their day -- it's over. Because, heroic as they were, they were inspired by socialism, not Judaism. They have run out of fire. The true Zionists today are the "right-wing, religious fanatics". The ones who look to a higher power than just the state. They are the ones who choose to live in constant danger, on the front lines, whose children have their legs blown off by their Arab "neighbors" who are willing to die in order to hold the land for Israel.


Gaza was an arid waste land when their government encouraged the Jews to move there. And they "made the desert bloom". They invented drip irrigation, which is now used world-wide. Since the soil had zero nutrients, they learned to put the nutrients into the water. And they learned to make it all work by housing the plants in green houses.

The Arabs, on the other hand, believed that Gaza was cursed and thought the Jews were crazy to try to farm there.


But the present day, secular Israelis are "tired". Now,Ehud Olmert, member of Knesset, said in a speech to an audience in NYC a couple of weeks ago -- that they were tired of making miracles, of winning great victories, tired of great exploits (Entebbe)... (words to that effect -- I'm paraphrasing).

He might as well have said they were tired of surviving.


The left in Israel is even more entrenched than here in the US. They control the press/media, education, the courts. The Israeli supreme court are terribly to the left. And new judges are appointed by the old ones! So the situation is nearly hopeless.


I have a book by Yoram Hazony: THE JEWISH STATE, The Struggle for Israel's Soul. He describes how in the seventies the left even further consolidated their power. They changed the text-books from instilling Jewish pride in the achievements of the Zionists who won the state -- to teaching how rascist they were, how they oppress the "Palestinians", etc.

Just as they are doing here in the States.

So the present generation have no clue about their history or about who they are. And instead of fighting to defeat an enemy who want only their destruction, they feel "guilty" about having to "occupy" the land. Land that they won miraculously in a war they begged their enemies not to force them into, against 4 Arab armies who tremendously outnumbered and outgunned them. And who wanted only to annihilate them.


Instead of a Jewish State as a haven for Jews everywhere, they are taught to idolize "democracy" and to be a nation like all others.

Sure. Tell that to the Arabs.


So now Sharon has given Gaza to (not back to) the terrorists. They will no longer be smuggling in arms (remember the Karin A ship with the 40 tons of arms) Now the Arabs will have a seaport and an airport. They will now be simply "importing" arms.

Already they have amassed arms on a scale and of a level of sophistication that they never before could field against Israel. And now they will strike at Tel Aviv and Haifa and the rest of Israel inside the green line.


And soon they will have a Palestinian state where they can live in peace, side by side with Israel.


Wanna buy a bridge, anyone?


What the "international community" understand is strength and fait accompli.

That's the policy Israel used to pursue and that she needs to return to.



I think Israel is living through one of her (self-imposed) darkest hours.


matis
 
Gaza was an arid waste land when their government encouraged the Jews to move there. And they "made the desert bloom". They invented drip irrigation, which is now used world-wide. Since the soil had zero nutrients, they learned to put the nutrients into the water. And they learned to make it all work by housing the plants in green houses.

The settlers did well, but you're mixing up the Sinai and parts of the West Bank with Gaza. The Israelis did do some farming there, but their settlements remained small and comprised only a tiny fraction of the total population. I have no doubt that the farms they built will be destroyed within the next month or so. There were never more than a few thousand settlers in the strip, which has at least a million Pals. Israel can now seal the borders completely, allowing NOBODY to cross back and forth. No settlers, no workers, nobody. This will improve security and effectively lock the Pals out of Israel. This process began many years ago, but the continued existence of small settlements necessitated that some channels be kept open. Now these too can be closed. Also, the IDF will no longer need to spend resources guarding the vulnerable outposts.

The MILITARY pulled out of Gaza back in 1994, and the SETTLEMENTS that have remained are strategic liabilities. Pulling out these isolated settlments has nothing to do one way or the other with Israel's tactical ability to strike terrorists in the strip.

No sane person ever believed that the Gaza Strip could have been or should have been incorporated into Israel. There are over a million people there Israel wants nothing to do with.
 
Yes, Israel is pulling out of Gaza. There were a few thousand settlers there, surrounded by over a million Palestinians who wanted them dead. It was never really all that sound an idea.

Furthermore, by turning over Gaza to the Palestinians, the Palestinians can no longer moan about the lack of a homeland. The Palestinians talk about regaining the West Bank and Jerusalem, but with the large numbers of Jews in those areas and their significance, that won't happen, and there will be arguing from a weaker position. Notice that nobody even puts the Golan Heights into the discussion?

It will also divide the Palestinians into two camps: Those who, now having land and houses they can finally call their own, will just want to go about living life; versus the opportunists who will draw upon decades of practicing corruption and graft to rob more of their own, and the terrorists who will continue to provoke Israelis into responding.

Bring it up again in ten years.
 
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