Texas Talk on Palestine

[Jeff Thomas]

St Johns, no offense taken.

I don't see how it obscures reality. The Palestinian people (minus the terrorist element) are the pawns of figures such as OBL. Without them his views on the Jewish people would be simply one of hate. As it is the way things are now for the Palestinians means that he probably does garner support from certain Palestinians because he appears to be on their side. OBL's fight is with America and the West though, what has he done about Israel? Nothing so far, thank God. Saddam was a secular man who supported Palestinian terrorist attempts, again for his own reasons but who knows what they were.

If I'm playing chess, I don't care whether my opposition is using a pawn or a queen ... they are all on the opposing team. That is my point. When you're at war, it becomes us vs. them by definition. Pawns, rooks, queens ... it doesn't matter. Many people, on both sides of this war, need to decide if they support terrorism or not. Those that do become the enemy, ipso facto.

Hitler was widely supported because he seemed and claimed to be the only way out of the mess 1930's Germany was in. As long as we leave the field to men like him by acting terribly towards another nation and leaving it's populace with no hope, there will be men like him. Terribly left-wing thoughts huh?

I believe the U.S. has a tough time in situations like Iraq because we try to do the right thing, and respect human life. That doesn't mean innocent civilian deaths don't occur ... but we're not carpet bombing Fallujah either. To continue the Hitler analogy, at some point the population makes it's choice, and they may become the enemy as well.

And, yes ... I "dehumanize" radical Islamist terrorist savages (though, technically, savages are "human" ...). "Savage - lacking the restraints normal to civilized human beings." I see this as an appropriate use of the term. Frankly, I am tired of seeing excuses made for such behavior ... targeting innocent men, women and children. Terrorists are savages, and we need to destroy them.

Regards from TX

 

[Art Eatman]

I've always liked Tom Clancy's idea as to control of the holy areas of Israel.

Insofar as moving the Israelis to the U.S., it wouldn't take a very huge swath. For round numbers, an area 120 miles by 30 miles would pretty well suffice. Heck, my home county is a lot larger than that.

Art

 

[Delmar]

I understand the arguement that not all Germans were Nazi's, but it did take invading their country and to settle for nothing less than unconditional surrender of Germany to stop the war.

I think that is exactly what its going to take in order to stop the war in Israel.

"Giving" the Palestinians a country to call their own is only going to give them a continued base of operations in which to terrorize Israel. I do not understand the existance of a Palistinian in the first place.
They literally sprung up from the sand in the early 1960's. They are Arabs, plain and simple, without a country to differentiate them.
Americans were colonists until our forefathers fought for and gained our independence, and established a nation. The Palestinians have yet to do this.

The big problem with invading the area occupied by the Palestinians is that its going to be nothing less than a call to arms for most, if not all the neighboring Arab countries.

We at least suspect Israel has nuclear weapons, and it would not surprise me in the least to find out some of the bigger Arab countries do as well. Katie barr the door on the day when the Israelis decide they have had enough.

 

[atek3]

As the only democracy in the mideast we have an obligation to help Israel

Whoa there cowboy, who are you including in this presumptive 'we'? Are you trying to say that the federal government should pick my pocket (and yours) and send the proceeds of said thievery to another group of people because they have the same structure of government as us? South Africa's one of the only real democracies in sub-saharan africa, do 'we' have an obligation to send them tax dollars. India and Japan are democracies surrounded by repressive regimes, what about them?

I think that is exactly what its going to take in order to stop the war in Israel.

I don´t think that will stop things. We invaded Iraq, totally conquered it, did that "stop the war" there? I´d say no, we merely turned it into a guerrilla war.

Perhaps the solution is to cut our ties to both israeli and the arab street, and say 'laissez faire'? just a thought.

atek3

 

[HBK]

One thing that people have overlooked, we owe the Jews big time. WHen we were fighting against England, we reached a point where our arsenal was shot. A Jewish man gave his entire fortune, $650,000 dollars, to resupply Washington's army. The Jewish man died a pauper, but he did what he thought was right for his people without a country. He did this because he knew if the the revolution succeeded, the new country would be the best hope for his people. Those thirteen stars on the one dollar bill, they aren't for the thirteen colonies. They are for the 13 tribes of Israel. They make the star of David above the eagle on the back of our one dollar bill. Washington knew the debt we owed Israel. It would be morally wrong to cut ties with them now.
Another reason that I am all for continued support of Israel is the Bible. It may not be a good reason to many people, but it is a good one to me. God plainly states "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" regarding Israel. I want no part of cursing Israel and they will have my support until my dying day. The easy thing to do would be to cut and run, leave them in the lurch and at the mercy of the Islamic world, but that would be the wrong thing to do for many reasons. Look at the settlements in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Where the Arabs are, there is nothing but sand, a wasteland. Where the Jews have settled, it is lush and green. Israel has become the #4 exporter of fruit and the #1 exporter of flowers to Europe since the Jews returned. I could write a book on this, but supporting Israel is the right thing to do for many reasons.

 

[Iain]

Jeff,

Glad you didn't take offense. I hope that I am clear in that I regard terrorists who would strap explosives to themselves, or worse encourage others to do it, and kill innocents in much the same way that you do.

I am clear that it is difficult as atek says to make the distinction especially when terrorists in the Israel/Palestine situation are not clearly marked out from the rest of the population. This is where my Northern Ireland/Falls Road analogy comes in, it would have been wrong for the UK to have destroyed the Falls Road and its occupants, just as it is wrong to advocate the doing of the same be it Fallujah or Palestine. This is the consistent theme I have in this thread, you may have noticed.

Delmar

our forefathers fought for and gained our independence, and established a nation. The Palestinians have yet to do this

Some may argue that this is what the Palestinians are up to now. I'm not going to support that POV, it would turn this thread in to a flame fest. I recommend reading those links I posted earlier about Palestinian Christians.

My problem with the whole Israel/Palestine thing is that people who were not Jewish clearly lived in that area prior to 1948. Now that doesn't mean I don't support the existance of Israel because I do, but we need to realise that asking those people to move is as traumatic for them as the return of Texas to Mexico would be to Texans. Some way needs to be found to accomodate them, if terrorism is renounced, and not just say 'go live in Jordan'. That isn't the answer.

HBK - that post reminded me of my best friend who is in the Ukraine at the moment helping elderly Jewish people leave and get on the boat to Israel. I highly respect his point of view.

 

[Delmar]

Some may argue that this is what the Palestinians are up to now.

St. Johns, I know and agree with what you are saying. There have been Arabs and Jews there for quite a while, and for most of the time previous to 1948, seemed to live peaceably next to each other.

To the Jew and Arab in the middle east, a lot of their anger turned towards the occupying power of the region.

I spent some time in Saudi Arabia a few years ago, and a couple of the locals they assigned to me as interpeters talked to me about the Muslim faith.

They told me of some of the similarities between the Koran and the Old Testament. I asked them why they were so against the Jews if their Holy scriptures were so alike? None of them would even attempt to engage in conversation about it. Their hatred of the Jews was seething and direct, and their position was simply no co-existence between the two faiths.

I may get a chance to go to Israel for my company, and would like to ask that same question to see what kind of response I get.