Get serious about immigration enforcement

[why_me]

Unless your white and from Europe or japan

Getting a visa is near impossible for many. My wife couldnt even get a tourist visa here. Reason. She was a single woman. Know why mexicans are here illegally? Cause it is the only way they can.
I dont like illegals cause they threaten my standard of living. I know illegals.
They work hard. They are honest. And have good family values. I dont hold it against them they are undercutting my wages. On the other hand that is the fact of life. I went to the INS with info on an employer who was hiring Illegals.
They werent interested.
Go after the employers. That is the only way to stop illegal immigration.

 

[Basura Blanca]

Go after the employers. That is the only way to stop illegal immigration.

That's a good first step, but IMO, it goes well beyond just busting those who violate the law on either end of it. The overall result must be to actually curb American business' need for that cheap labor. Simply busting businesses or just rounding up "illegals" will only make for tighter availability of the laborers and create a better "black market" too. Historically, that is almost always the case.

I don't have (nor have I claimed to have) the absolute solution on how exactly to do it, but if the need is not snuffed out, the problem will always exist in some form or another.

 

[c_yeager]

I don't have (nor have I claimed to have) the absolute solution on how exactly to do it, but if the need is not snuffed out, the problem will always exist in some form or another.

I hope you don't expect people to pay your opinion that much credence if you can't even come up to an alternative to what has been suggested. Its all well and good to say that we must "eliminate the demand for illegal labor" but if even the person proposing the idea has no idea HOW to do that then its just a fanciful notion and NOT a constructive idea.

 

[Basura Blanca]

I hope you don't expect people to pay your opinion that much credence if you can't even come up to an alternative to what has been suggested. Its all well and good to say that we must "eliminate the demand for illegal labor" but if even the person proposing the idea has no idea HOW to do that then its just a fanciful notion and NOT a constructive idea.

I said "absolute solution" not "no idea whatsoever". There is a difference, don't you think? I reiterated the point that enforcing immigration laws that prohibit business from employing those who aren't legally allowed to be employed would be a good first step. How about encouraging jobs that can't be outsourced -like agriculture, where many so-called "illegal aliens" are employed- to be more attractive and better paying in the first place? The crappy jobs stay crappy because the common opinion is that they should be that way and that they are best filled with illegal labor to reinforce that idea. I merely said I didn't have all the answers but I have at least some clue as to what I'm talking about.

However, in regards to what you're saying, the same applies to those griping that so-called "illegal aliens" are undermining the country and that rampant "Mexicanism" is ruining their lives. I've yet to see much more than a complaint-fest about the subject with no one suggesting anything more than what's already been tried and that which has been proven to miserably fail regarding immigration policy. It's what I refer to as the "build a bigger fence" mentality. It hasn't worked yet, so why feed that failure?
If you're going to make such accusations, and question the integrity of my opinions, then do so with equal application to all that are guilty, ok?

And since you said it, what do you suggest we do? I'm open for discussion on solutions, I just can't stand the inane rhetoric that commonly sprouts up whenever immigration is discussed. It's downright silly when the subject matter centers around choosing a language at the ATM and other such petty complaints.

 

[beerslurpy]

I don't have (nor have I claimed to have) the absolute solution on how exactly to do it, but if the need is not snuffed out, the problem will always exist in some form or another.

A fundamental short-term source of the problem is that most businesses in this country are so poorly run that they would go out of business if they had to pay competitive wages. Every well run company I have come across was making enough money that hiring americans and paying competitive salaries was the least of their worries. The reason high salaries are considered competitive is beacuse the best companies actually derive that much benefit to the bottom line by employing people with the skill they need.

The poorly run companies only extract a small portion of that productivity and have to make up the difference somewhere on the cost side- either by charging the customer more, paying the worker less or both. Remember that a poorly run company will often not benefit from high quality workers since those workers will either leave quickly or they will be disruptive as they attempt to fix the corporate culture (at which point they will usually give up in frustration and leave anyway).

Example, company I know of (no names) that basically develops software. However, their products were developed in such a way that about 70 percent of the company is dedicated to placating customers and fixing the endless stream of bugs. If we didnt have h1b programmers and illegal maintenance people, the company wouldnt make a profit. In other companies, I've seen lack of profitability because they are in a mature market with low margins, or a an profitable market with a bad business model.

The solution is one of the following:
-allow americans to work for lower wages (the free market approach) while clamping down on hiring of illegals
-let the poorly run companies go out of business

The problem of course is that americans have to live in america, while mexican migrants are only working to afford food and clothing in their gualajara hovel. The cause, in my opinion, of the problem is that companies and mexicans both want to work, but they cant do it in mexico. Why is this? Because the mexican government steals everything that isnt bolted down.

The real long term solution is to invade mexico, overthrow the govenment and let them start over from scratch, with a heavily armed citizenry. A non-corrupt mexico would be a true paradise to do business in for both the workers and the companies. I guess teh mexicans just feel "if things are so good across the border, why risk getting shot to change mexico?"

 

[Basura Blanca]

The real long term solution is to invade mexico, overthrow the govenment and let them start over from scratch, with a heavily armed citizenry. A non-corrupt mexico would be a true paradise to do business in for both the workers and the companies. I guess teh mexicans just feel "if things are so good across the border, why risk getting shot to change mexico?"

Well, actually Mexico is quite well-armed among the general citizenry. Believe it or not, disregarding the general illegality and difficulty of private firearms ownership, MANY people own guns. It's a myth that the Mexican population is disarmed. Don't believe it. Further, Mexico is one of few countries that has a 2nd amendment type clause in their constitution - not that it means much as it is loaded with stipulations that render it useless.

Article 10 - The inhabitants of the United Mexican States have the right to possess arms, in their residences, for their security and legitimate defense with the exception of those prohibited by federal law, and those reserved for the exclusive use of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and National Guard. Federal law will determine the cases, conditions, requisites, and places in which the bearing of arms by inhabitants will be authorized.

Source

However, all those points are actually irrelevant to the discussion IMO since a "take over of Mexico" and "overthrow" of their government is just plain silly rhetoric again (hopefully you're not being serious - really). Besides, if you're going to point fingers at corrupt governments "stealing everything not bolted down", you'd be best suited to first start pointing blame within the U.S. Plenty of our own are disgustingly guilty of such crimes - the hell with due process...

As for your comments on mismanaged businesses - Without deviating too much from the real topic, it often amazes me when people suggest that employees should take concessions and work for low wages as a solution to just about any labor related problem. The reality is that big businesses are often the most able to offer good pay and benefits yet so many must be coerced into doing so. I do understand what you're getting at though - in order to replace the illegal work force with legal workers, those workers must be willing to work unskilled jobs for depressed wages or else the businesses will fight vigorously to hold on to their cheap, illegal labor force instead. I don't however agree, for numerous reasons, that workers need to take it in the shorts to make this happen with successful results. Almost universally, big businesses can be well into the black, making profit hand over fist and they'll STILL look for a way to make cuts and most often it falls upon their least skilled workers to take the brunt of it first. To some extent, I have faith in the idea that a prosperous society will be less burdened by crime and other social ills because they can easily afford goods that they need or desire and for that reason, I don't see that encouraging the low paying job market to thrive helps in any way. Given the choice (since you offered), I'll take the Darwin approach and let those businesses that can't adapt to doing things legally to simply shrivel up into oblivion.
It also sounds as if you're actually defending illegal labor for the sake of keeping poorly run businesses operating only for the sake of having them around. I could be wrong, so don't get worked up if I'm misunderstanding you. Again, I disagree with that notion and feel strongly that any business engaging in illegal activity (like hiring an illegal workforce) should have those that are guilty prosecuted and fined into submission. They, not so-called "illegal aliens" are the real detriment to the country.

 

[c_yeager]

I said "absolute solution" not "no idea whatsoever". There is a difference, don't you think?

You still havent even presented a notion of how to pull off your ideal solution. Its a fine piece of idealism but, at this point nothing more than that. I am personally not convinced that making agricultural jobs in some way "better" or higher is going to prevent people from wanting to cross the border to work them. In fact I cant help but think that just the opposite is more likely.

And since you said it, what do you suggest we do? I'm open for discussion on solutions, I just can't stand the inane rhetoric that commonly sprouts up whenever immigration is discussed. It's downright silly when the subject matter centers around choosing a language at the ATM and other such petty complaints.

If you had taken the time to read my previous posts on this thread you would know what side of this issue I happen to be on. I personally don't think we HAVE an immigration problem.

 

[ken grant]

Illegals

Go to the horse's mouth!!!!! Talk to the U.S. citizens who live and work on our Southern Border.
Check the local Welfare and Medical Care people!
Check with local Law Enforcement!
Check with the local landowners!

 

[wingman]

The reality is that big businesses are often the most able to offer good pay and benefits yet so many must be coerced into doing so.

Greed in the business world is much worse now then when I started out 50 years ago, now the idea is each day how to increase profits, thats ok you
say however how far do we go to do that once you reach a high point in
any company how do you extract that last penny, it must come from the employees or quality of product, and many companies do both now.

I personally don't think we HAVE an immigration problem.

Perhaps your not looking, come down to my area of the country I have seen
first hand the problems caused by illegal immigration especially in the past 12
years, Texas is becoming the next calif. It is a problem my friend make no
mistake and a large part of this country disagrees with you, the cost in
terms of schools, hospital, crime, if we don't get some type of immigration
reform it will be a hot topic in 2008. :banghead:

 

[RealGun]

For all those that cite welfare, health costs, scapegoating ad nauseum, etc., etc., please - I ask you to produce specific cites to verifiable, unbiased data that proves your position. If you can't, then it'd be best to at least not try and pawn off your opinions that are based on mere hearsay as facts.

Horsepucky! Another person's anecdotes are as valid as yours. When you have Mexicans and Mexican culture all around you, you will have observations and opinions with some validity.

Actually Nicarauguans are the basis of my most personal anecdote.

If it is difficult to get into this country legally, what does that tell you? Are you actually going to use that as justification for sneaking in, only to later receive amnesty and the red carpet, entitlements, etc.?

 

[longeyes]

I consider the financial cost of illegal immigration already well substantiated. For those still trying to do the math, the sources are out there--if you really are interested in challenging your pro-illegal immigration views. It won't take long to find that. I cited the simple arithmetic for education costs: $7K per student here in Los Angeles County. That, of course, is a problem not just of illegal immigration but one of income distribution: transferring wealth from the "landed class" to the unlanded. Fair? I don't think so, and I am a huge believer in education and have spent a lot of time educating myself (almost entirely in private institutions).

The illegal immigration issue is not "just" an economic one. One does not have to be a "bigot" or a xenophobe to be concerned about cultural and social issues. We are not supposed to be asking, openly, what the impact of a huge number of unassimilated aliens--and they are increasingly unassimilated--is and will be on what we have considered the nature of America. The philosophical and cultural roots that sustain America are not impregnable, and they are already under serious attack in our schools, media, and elsewhere. For those who believe that the U.S. will be just fine as a balkanized and/or polyglot nation, I think you need to reconsider. You might also want to ask yourself if you really want the values that prevail in much of the rest of the world--bribery as the common coin of the realm, for starters, in business dealings--as underpinnings of the new America. We have fought long and hard to overcome the worst of tribalism. Now we are slowly but surely drifting back toward it, with the help of ideologues with another agenda. That agenda is anti-individualist and anti-reason, in my opinion.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Mexico reminds me of that country, we're nation building now. The govt is corupt ,prison are hell holes ,they have oil ,supporting terrorist by helping them cross our border I'am sure we could find weapons of mass destruction ,if not it doesn't matter .LETS INVADE !
I mean its close to home our troops could go home on week ends We could put in a govt of our choosing and have a election down the road. We can take care of the drug dealers ,lock them up as terrorist .NO TRIAL NEEDED !
I even bet the people would greet out troops with flowers and open arms. After all we would be freeing them so they could stay home. . Donald look what we missing You and Dick better get the plans to George right away and send Colin to the UN with his pictures so he can do his presentation Lets get this war rolling and make the United States a safer place.

 

[wingman]

The illegal immigration issue is not "just" an economic one. One does not have to be a "bigot" or a xenophobe to be concerned about cultural and social issues. We are not supposed to be asking, openly, what the impact of a huge number of unassimilated aliens--and they are increasingly unassimilated--is and will be on what we have considered the nature of America. The philosophical and cultural roots that sustain America are not impregnable, and they are already under serious attack in our schools, media, and elsewhere. For those who believe that the U.S. will be just fine as a balkanized and/or polyglot nation, I think you need to reconsider. You might also want to ask yourself if you really want the values that prevail in much of the rest of the world--bribery as the common coin of the realm, for starters, in business dealings--as underpinnings of the new America. We have fought long and hard to overcome the worst of tribalism. Now we are slowly but surely drifting back toward it, with the help of ideologues with another agenda. That agenda is anti-individualist and anti-reason, in my opinion.

Excellent Longeyes well said.

 

[Moondoggie]

I lived in Yuma, AZ for 12 years.

My uninsured motorist coverage was about 90% of my liabialiity premiums. Far higher than anyplace else I lived during my 26 yrs of military service...there's a cost-related anecdote for 'ya.

I also agree that "Mexican" is a nationality, not a race.

Statistics show that compared to middle class Americans, Mexicans tend to have more children per couple. A larger representation of Catholisism and other cultural factors among Mexicans probably plays a role in this. I do believe that the inexorable "taking over" by the masses from Mexico of areas of the US, as related by the author quoted above is in fact happening today. I don't believe, however, that it is limited to the area of the SW...look at any major metro area in the US today.

Mexico is a third world country. The massive influx of illegal aliens does have a negative impact on our standard of living in the US, IMO. Tuburculosis, hepititis, and HIV are much more prevelant in Mexico than in the US. That is a fact. When my ancestors immigrated legally to the US from Europe, they had to pass thru medical screening to gain entry to the US.

No other country in the world would allow themselves to be "invaded" by countless millions of people as we have without doing anything to stop it, and we had better get our heads out of the sand before it's too late. This is the most glaring shortcoming of President Bush IMO, even though I voted for him.

Everybody is a racist to some degree if the truth be told. Bigotry is another issue.

I have no problem with people immigrating from Mexico to the US, regardless of whether they seek citizenship or permanent legal residency as long as they do it legally. "It's too difficult to comply with the law" just doesn't cut it. If we stopped illegals from entering the country the demand for their labor would bring about changes to the law (read: the big corporations and lobbies that employ them would get the congress critters that they OWN to do something about it so they could maintain their profits...also benefiting everyone who owns shares in a mutual fund) that would lead to controlled, sustainable immigration.

Just my .02 cents.

Flame away!

 

[RealGun]

I also agree that "Mexican" is a nationality, not a race.

This has been stated a couple of times. If I know at a glance that someone is of Central or South American descent, it is a question of race. I think of them as Native American, although South and Central, not North.

I agree that "Mexican" alone is not a race. Mexico is a country. However, in my experience, it is quite common to refer to a person's racial appearance as "Mexican".

 

[El Tejon]

If all this nonsense about concern for immigration is really over "security", then why isn't anyone complaining about all those Canadians in Hollywood taking jobs from hard-working American actors? Funny how the whining and moaning is always about the immigants or the border with darker coloured eyes.

*Sigh, the alien hordes* Time and time agains through the history of the United States, we have wrung our hands over immigration--those awful Irish and Italians, they breed like rabbits you know, those filthy East Europeans, they don't bathe and will never learn English, those awful Chinese, they never learn English and will destroy our sacred Western culture. We have grown stronger with each wave and will continue to do so.

Bush's guest worker/amnesty is merely a recognition of reality. Mexicans pull the wagon for the U.S. economy. Decriminalizing extra judicial immigration is part of the solution.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Mexicans pull the wagon for the U.S. economy.

Prove it.

 

[longeyes]

Mexicans pull the wagon for American society?

Well, if we wish to return to a nation of wagons and buggywhips you may be right. America's edge is in science and technology, operating within a social and legal framework of established and respected laws.

Next you'll be telling us that America's economic pre-eminence was built on the backs of slaves. Tell that to the gunmakers of 19th century New England.

 

[Basura Blanca]

You still havent even presented a notion of how to pull off your ideal solution. Its a fine piece of idealism but, at this point nothing more than that. I am personally not convinced that making agricultural jobs in some way "better" or higher is going to prevent people from wanting to cross the border to work them. In fact I cant help but think that just the opposite is more likely.

No? How did you blast my "fine piece of idealism" then? If I'd presented nothing, you'd have had nothing to disagree with me about. You even go so far as to paraphrase my "notion" before you disagree with it (which is fine). Don't say I didn't suggest something, though. Besides that, the POINT was that the inane yammering about "Mexicanism", cultural pillaging, "cost to society", etc. etc. is nothing more than arm-chair complaining too, yet it doesn't seem to bother you enough to comment and challenge those on that end of the argument. That, in light of your admission that you don't believe there is an immigration problem, baffles me more than anything.

If you had taken the time to read my previous posts on this thread you would know what side of this issue I happen to be on. I personally don't think we HAVE an immigration problem.

On this particular thread? You didn't really say much to indicate your position either way on the issue, IMO. Besides, I too don't personally disagree with you that we HAVE such a huge immigration problem either. I think it is often times blown well out of proportion by those that believe the hype surrounding the issue. Perhaps you should re-read my posts. I've hinted at that several times too.

 

[Basura Blanca]

Horsepucky! Another person's anecdotes are as valid as yours. When you have Mexicans and Mexican culture all around you, you will have observations and opinions with some validity.

Uhhh... I live in San Diego. In fact, I've lived here all my life. I can go look at the border within a ten minute drive. I deal with people that are so-called "illegal aliens" (Mexicans) on a daily basis. How much moreMexican culture all around me do I need to validate my opinions for you? Please tell me.
I stand by my statements, RealGun. Show me data that proves all the scapegoating that so-called "illegal aliens" often endure or at least don't try to pass those opinions off as facts.

If it is difficult to get into this country legally, what does that tell you? Are you actually going to use that as justification for sneaking in, only to later receive amnesty and the red carpet, entitlements, etc.?

Who tried to justify it? I just made the observation which was based on long time, personally related experiences from so-called "illegal aliens" that I know.

 

[Basura Blanca]

I consider the financial cost of illegal immigration already well substantiated. For those still trying to do the math, the sources are out there--if you really are interested in challenging your pro-illegal immigration views. It won't take long to find that. I cited the simple arithmetic for education costs: $7K per student here in Los Angeles County. That, of course, is a problem not just of illegal immigration but one of income distribution: transferring wealth from the "landed class" to the unlanded. Fair? I don't think so, and I am a huge believer in education and have spent a lot of time educating myself (almost entirely in private institutions).

And I asked simply for the source for such information (and I'm asking again). I also pointed out that rent paid in the school communities by so-called "illegal aliens" or in this case, the "non-landed class", pays property taxes indirectly that goes to public schools.
Continuing to cite numbers without a source to be double-checked doesn't suddenly make what you're saying true.
Afterall, 21 kids are killed per day because of "rampant handgun violence", right?
Cite a source for the $7000, etc. and I'll look at it.

The illegal immigration issue is not "just" an economic one. One does not have to be a "bigot" or a xenophobe to be concerned about cultural and social issues.

Balkanization... - I've already pointed out earlier the "whys" that easily explain the lack of assimilation that many falsely perceive exists. Go back and re-read it if you must.

 

[longeyes]

If all this nonsense about concern for immigration is really over "security", then why isn't anyone complaining about all those Canadians in Hollywood taking jobs from hard-working American actors?

It is not about "security," if by security you mean defense against terrorists in a conventional sense. But it is about security if you mean the integrity of a national culture. We've become so PC-indoctrinated that no one wants to openly say what tens of millions of American feel. This is what the concept of assimilation is all about: preservation of the core values of the nation. To the extent that immigrants embrace those they are welcome; to the extent that they don't they pose a threat to the national survival as great as any suicide bomber.

I live in "Hollywood" and am involved with visual media. You think runaway film production is not an issue? As for Canadians, I'm sure that if a hundred thousand arrived and claimed all the industry jobs it would become an issue, you can bet on that.

 

[Basura Blanca]

My uninsured motorist coverage was about 90% of my liabialiity premiums. Far higher than anyplace else I lived during my 26 yrs of military service...there's a cost-related anecdote for 'ya.

(snip)

Statistics show that compared to middle class Americans, Mexicans tend to have more children per couple. A larger representation of Catholisism and other cultural factors among Mexicans probably plays a role in this. I do believe that the inexorable "taking over" by the masses from Mexico of areas of the US, as related by the author quoted above is in fact happening today. I don't believe, however, that it is limited to the area of the SW...look at any major metro area in the US today.

Mexico is a third world country. The massive influx of illegal aliens does have a negative impact on our standard of living in the US, IMO. Tuburculosis, hepititis, and HIV are much more prevelant in Mexico than in the US. That is a fact. When my ancestors immigrated legally to the US from Europe, they had to pass thru medical screening to gain entry to the US.

Ok. Now point out a source for those "statistics".
Ever heard the line - "Figures don't lie, but liars do figure". It's beginning to take on some hard reality here in this thread...

 

[wolf]

mexican a race..??

according to La Raza its the only race..its odd though...mexico is run by european white folks who are all rich..hmmmm..a third world country..well lets see..oil is the #1 income source(#2 source: remittances sent home approx $30 billion and rising)..how many oil producing countries can you name that are 3rd world..they must laugh their asses off..mexican royality..oh yes Mr. USA we are just a very poor country..yes we are 3rd world..we need more of your aid to help us educate, house & take care of our citizens..

here is the part i love best: mexico does not even try to hide the fact that it does not educate its people, build housing & infrastructure, encourage its people to migrate to "el norte" for health, education & welfare..then return to mexico

as for some costs to the US..here in los angeles several trauma clinics have closed in the last few years because of costs due to illegal aliens and more are going to close for the same reason. (source: LA Times)

the los angeles unified school district has approx 720,000 students K-12..70% are Latino over 50% of that number are "limited english speakers" the average cost per student is over $11,000 (annual budget 8 billion plus) (source: LA Times) property tax paying for this??...please wake up..not in LA (prop 13)

CA prisons: approx 25-30% of the prison population is composed of "illegal aliens" many from street gangs through out CA. The 18th street gang one of LA's largest (estimates from 10-15,000 members) make up a large part of the prison population and have many illegal aliens in their membership (source: LA Times)

now the LA Times is liberal & biased by its own admission..in fact the new owners admonished the editorial staff to try and stay objective..try to be..sort of journalistic..yeah right..i can hear it now...well we tried to curb them toward the center..reall we did

I mind that parts of LA are "mexifornia" and the poverty (shanty towns) that are seen..are taken to be "normal" in some parts of the southwest they are known as colonials..four families living in a two bedroom apt poor plumbing etc..poor roads and inferstructure..(source: cities of pocomia, santa ana and east LA)

the govt of mexico is the most responsible..it does not take care of its own people and has no plans to do so (even though it can)..that seems to be our responsibility...and if we resent it...we are racist...

wolf

 

[Basura Blanca]

It is not about "security," if by security you mean defense against terrorists in a conventional sense. But it is about security if you mean the integrity of a national culture. We've become so PC-indoctrinated that no one wants to openly say what tens of millions of American feel. This is what the concept of assimilation is all about: preservation of the core values of the nation. To the extent that immigrants embrace those they are welcome; to the extent that they don't they pose a threat to the national survival as great as any suicide bomber.

I'll play along with your concerns for a moment -
If our culture is strong, it will survive any attack that comes it way. If it is weak, than it will be replaced by the more dominant culture including it's core values, etc.
Personally, I think this is all hype. There is no great conspiracy to "Mexicanize" the USA or ruin it's "culture" and "values" from the inside out.