U.S. worried about volunteers patrolling border

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rick_reno

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7006708/

The Associated Press
Updated: 9:58 a.m. ET Feb. 21, 2005WASHINGTON - Intent on securing the vulnerable Arizona border from illegal immigrant crossings, U.S. officials are bracing for what they call a potential new threat this spring: the Minutemen.

Nearly 500 volunteers have already joined the Minuteman Project, anointing themselves civilian border patrol agents determined to stop the immigration flow that routinely, and easily, seeps past federal authorities. They plan to patrol a 40-mile stretch of the southeast Arizona border throughout April when the tide of immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border peaks.

“I felt the only way to get something done was to do it yourself,†said Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant and decorated Vietnam War veteran who is helping recruit Minutemen across the country.

“We’ve been repeatedly accused of being people who are taking the law into our own hands,†said Gilchrist, 56, of Aliso Viejo, Calif. “That is an outright bogus statement. We are going down there to assist law enforcement.â€

Officials concede the 370-mile Arizona border is the most porous stretch on the U.S.-Mexico line. Moreover, recent intelligence show that al-Qaida terrorists are likely to enter the country through the Mexico border, James Loy, the deputy secretary of the Homeland Security Department, said last week.

“Several al-Qaida leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico, and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons,†Loy said in written testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the U.S. Border Patrol last year, 52 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border. The agency increased the number of agents in the Tucson sector, which has its largest staff, from 1,700 to 2,100 over the last 18 months.

But that number is going to grow to try to plug the remaining holes, said Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert Bonner. About 10,000 federal agents now patrol the 2,000-mile southern border, he said.

Border chief worries about guns
Officials fear the Minuteman patrols could cause more trouble than they prevent. At least some of the volunteers plan to arm themselves during the 24-hour desert patrols. Many are untrained and have little or no experience in confronting illegal border crossings.

“Any time there are firearms and you’re out in the middle of no-man’s land in difficult terrain, it’s a dangerous setting,†said Bonner, whose agency is keeping a close eye on the Minutemen plans.

“The Border Patrol does this every day, and they are qualified and very well-trained to handle the situation,†he said. “Ordinary Americans are not. So there’s a danger that not just illegal migrants might get hurt, but that American citizens might get hurt in this situation.â€

Civilian patrols are nothing new along the southern border, where crossing the international line is sometimes as easy as stepping over a few rusty strands of barbed wire. But they usually are limited to small, informal groups, leaving organizers to believe the Minuteman Project is the largest of its kind on the southern border.

Quality control problem?
It may also prove to be a magnet for what Glenn Spencer, president of the private American Border Patrol, described as camouflage-wearing, weapons-toting hard-liners who might get a little carried away with their assignments.

“How are they going to keep the nutcases out of there? They can’t control that,†said Spencer, whose 40-volunteer group, based in Hereford, Ariz., has used unmanned aerial vehicles and other high-tech equipment to track and report the number of border crossings for more than two years.

“There’s a storm gathering here on the border, and there are conditions ripe for some difficulty,†he said.

The border agents agree.

The Minutemen “clearly have every reason to be upset with the federal government for abandoning them,†said National Border Patrol Council president T.J. Bonner, no relation to the commissioner.

But “if anything goes wrong, God forbid, someone does injure an agent, this government is going to be turning both barrels on them and come after them with a vengeance,†he said.

Orders to alert feds

Gilchrist said the Minutemen are under strict orders to merely identify and follow illegal border crossers and alert federal agents. They should not interact with the immigrants except to offer food, water or medical care. If there’s a couple of “bad apples†who turn up in the group, Gilchrist said, they will face prosecution if they step outside the law.

Something dramatic needed to be done to curb the years of crime, property damage and trash dumping caused by the border crossings, Gilchrist said.

“Things are out of control†he said. “And they’ve been out of control for decades.â€

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
 
The Minutemen “clearly have every reason to be upset with the federal government for abandoning them,” said National Border Patrol Council president T.J. Bonner, no relation to the commissioner.
But “if anything goes wrong, God forbid, someone does injure an agent, this government is going to be turning both barrels on them and come after them with a vengeance,” he said.
The federal .gov fails to perform one of the duties it is charged with, nay refuses to do even. Then issues thinly veiled threats against its Masters when THEY act to carry out those duties. :cuss:
 
While I support what these guys are doing I am concerned that they will have a few bad apples. This sounds like lawsuit city to me.
 
Personally, I can't see anything negative about this at all, except for the fact that these people don't have the power to actually detain, remove, deport or whatever it takes to bring the encounter to a close.
They will see hundreds of people every day, and the border patrol will still only capture a tiny fraction of the illegals that these people report.
This is a situation that is going to get out of hand, not because a group of citizens is willing to spend their spare time patroling the borders but because the people we are paying to do so, don't.
As far as the so called "bad apples", do you think that there are no "bad apples" in the US Border Patrol ? Do you think that they should just forget the whole thing because they MIGHT get a few volunteers that are "bad apples" ? Or would it be a better idea to see if they have any problems and deal with the problems as they occur ?
 
Seems to me that the feds are missing out on a golden opportunity here. Instead of clucking their tongues and wringing hands, why not co-opt the miliitia boys and put them to work? A force multiplier if you will.

Call for volunteers, train them, and give them radios and maps. You could even give them junior BP badges. :D

"Badges? We don't need no . . ." :D
 
“The Border Patrol does this every day, and they are qualified and very well-trained to handle the situation,†he said. “Ordinary Americans are not. So there’s a danger that not just illegal migrants might get hurt, but that American citizens might get hurt in this situation.â€

Yeah, they do it every day, but what is the IT that they are DOing. 3 million crossers a year?!?! i'd say the it is coffee and the doing is sipping it. And ordinary americans?? what the hell makes the BP agents so super special? glorified security guards is what they are. (no offense to the sec G's)

"Border chief worries about guns."

well duh, he should be happy the locals posses such restraint.

"It may also prove to be a magnet for what Glenn Spencer, president of the private American Border Patrol, described as camouflage-wearing, weapons-toting hard-liners who might get a little carried away with their assignments." :scrutiny: :rolleyes:
 
“Any time there are firearms and you’re out in the middle of no-man’s land in difficult terrain, it’s a dangerous setting,â€
Hmmm. I was always thought no-man's land and difficult terrain were exactly the kind of situations in which a firearm is a good idea.
 
It's a noble effort that should have the support of the fed gov. Since it doesn't, maybe the best thing would be for the Minutemen to stand down and allow the next terrorist to come across the border. Until some high profile terrorist act occurs here, fed gov will do nothing to control the border.
 
I don't see why the Feds don't try to adapt the "community watch" program concept when there appears to be many volunteers already.

However, the people who volunteer for this may have the best intentions in mind but the adventure seekers had best stay away. It may be several peoples' fantasy to grab their tricked out AR and patrol the deserts in a worthy cause but that is just begging for some real legal trouble. If you're just observing and reporting, how likely is a "firefight" going to develop? I imagine a jury would wonder the same thing when considering the charges brought against someone for shooting an illegal immigrant.

If I were to participate, I wouldn't go armed with any more than what I could justify to protect myself from desert critters.
 
The big money boys behind both Rep. and Dem. politicians WANT that flow of illegals to continue.

So, the .gov will find some yahoo in the volunteer groups who does something stupid to arrest and prosecute and use that as an excuse to marginalize and demonize what these groups are doing.

The .gov will do whatever it takes to keep that border open, while pretending that they really would like to control it. :banghead:
 
El Tejon said:
. . . the feds are missing out on a golden opportunity here. Instead of clucking their tongues and wringing hands, why not co-opt the miliitia boys and put them to work? . . .
El Tejon has an idea there . . . tell me, is there any precedent for issuing letters of marque to infantry?
TheEgg said:
So, the .gov will find some yahoo in the volunteer groups who does something stupid to arrest and prosecute and use that as an excuse to marginalize and demonize what these groups are doing.
They'll do this with the willing media. (But notice . . . they didn't try to marginalize and demonize illegal aliens when it turned out one of the Beltway Snipers was one.)
 
“How are they going to keep the nutcases out of there? They can’t control that,†said Spencer, whose 40-volunteer group, based in Hereford, Ariz., has used unmanned aerial vehicles and other high-tech equipment to track and report the number of border crossings for more than two years.

“There’s a storm gathering here on the border, and there are conditions ripe for some difficulty,†he said.

The border agents agree.
Yep! Clouds are gathering. And the first sign is the appearance of vigilantees. Law will be inforced. If duly constituted government can not or will not enforce laws then it is traditionally American to do it in spite of government.

The Minutemen “clearly have every reason to be upset with the federal government for abandoning them,†said National Border Patrol Council president T.J. Bonner, no relation to the commissioner.

But “if anything goes wrong, God forbid, someone does injure an agent, this government is going to be turning both barrels on them and come after them with a vengeance,†he said.
Another sign clouds are forming. Both sides are hardening their positions.
 
Let's see: the Minutemen can bring their game to the southern border--or they can bring it to D.C....

If there are "bad apples" in their ranks, who grew those bad apples? Was it not the culture of exploitation and indifference and arrogance that appears to pervade the Federal government?

Methinks the real bad apples are farther up the chain, in the Federal gov't itself.

We all know, don't we, that the Feds have been told to have a hands-off policy on illegal immigration? After all these are just "hard-working moms and dads" and "family values don't end at the border." I remember hearing those words somewhere...up the chain.

What is pathetic and infuriating about all this is that Bad Stuff Happening is all but inevitable and it will engender retaliation, against the Minutemen, by the Feds, and that, in turn, will enrage and embolden the "bad apples" and...well, you get the idea. The Feds must be salivating at the prospect of some "vigilante" going mental at the border and discrediting the idea of defending American sovereignty. All the more reason to keep the ignorant peons--that's us--in line. Color me cynical, and pissed off.

www.teamamericapac.org
 
After reading this statement...

The Minutemen “clearly have every reason to be upset with the federal government for abandoning them,†said National Border Patrol Council president T.J. Bonner, no relation to the commissioner.
But “if anything goes wrong, God forbid, someone does injure an agent, this government is going to be turning both barrels on them and come after them with a vengeance,†he said.

The federal .gov fails to perform one of the duties it is charged with, nay refuses to do even. Then issues thinly veiled threats against its Masters when THEY act to carry out those duties.

I thought of this statement.

No sooner that the predators retreated, leaving mangled comrades in their wake, than did rancher Sam come out, shotgun at the ready. He surveyed the battleground and addressed the sheep. --"Sheep," he said "I am impressed! Who did this fine work?" Several planners of the ambush came forward, baaaing proudly.

Sam raised his shotgun and blasted the animal closest to him. The rest stood dumbfounded, not sure what to do. The shepherd quickly shot the others who came forward.

--"That" he declared "is the end to which all who employ violence against fellow animal will come." One ewe began to say that jackals were not exactly fellow animals, but the gaping muzzle of Sam's shotgun restored quiet.

Sam knew he was right, for if the dumb beasts learned to fend for themselves, he and his shotgun would be unemployed. Worse yet, fleecing would become outright perilous. [www.a-human-right.com]
 
Government

The government will spend both more time and money to control the Min. Men than they will the invaders of our country.
The news media will say the Min.Men are just mean-minded people who enjoy trying to enforce their will on others while the invaders are good poeple seeking work :banghead:
 
“Any time there are firearms and you’re out in the middle of no-man’s land in difficult terrain, it’s a dangerous setting,†said Bonner, whose agency is keeping a close eye on the Minutemen plans.

Funny, I thought that this "no man's land" of which he speaks is called the United States of America! :rolleyes:
 
This isn't politicly correct but if a few illegals were getting shot each night would it not slow the flow when a few relatives came back from their crossing in a bag. We have given the gov. it's chance and they have failed.
 
The government will spend both more time and money to control the Min. Men than they will the invaders of our country.

My thoughts exactly. IMO, where the gvt is consistently failing to perform its duties after being notified of its shortcomings, there is no room for anyone to complain about people "taking the law into their own hands".
 
I believe this is an invasion and should be stopped. If the goverment fails to protect us, its our responsibility to do so. I only wish I lived down there, I would be #501
 
The government will spend both more time and money to control the Min. Men than they will the invaders of our country.
How true - but not new. I remember a couple of decades back when black children were being murdered in the Atlanta area by, IIRC, a guy named Wayne Williams. The police were ineffective so parents were forming up in groups armed with baseball bats and pitchforks in order to walk their kids to school, watch over them at the playground, etc. The cops' leadership went ballistic and detailed a LOT of officers to harass and intimidate the parents . . . more manpower was expended to keep them in line than was allocated to finding the killer.
 
more manpower was expended to keep them in line than was allocated to finding the killer

It is much easier to control the good guy then the bad, years ago I was
told in management classes you always push the employees doing the work not the trouble maker. Government thinking at its best. Control within don't
stop them at the border. In a few years you will need a passport to cross
state lines but for sure the border will still be open. :cuss:
 
Fed.gov SHOULD be worried.

These guys will show the world exactly how ineffective our [ahem] Border Security really is.

I am NOT bashing the Border Patrol/Customs/INS guys. {not bashing the Line Officers...the higher-ups....well that is a different issue} There is too much wide open border, and not enough of our guys to watch the border.

CarbineKid, I don't live anywhere near there, else I would be #502, standing shoulder-to-shoulder with you.
 
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"I don't see why the Feds don't try to adapt the "community watch" program concept when there appears to be many volunteers already."

BECAUSE “The Border Patrol does this every day, and they are qualified and very well-trained to handle the situation, Ordinary Americans are not. So there’s a danger that not just illegal migrants might get hurt, but that American citizens might get hurt in this situation.†:banghead: :rolleyes:
 
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