U.S. worried about volunteers patrolling border

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...the immigration flow that routinely, and easily, seeps past federal authorities.

They're not so-called "immigrants," but illegal aliens, all of whom are felons. They don't "seep" past "federal authorities," but flood into the United States like a tsunami—and they're far more destructive than a mere wall of water.
 
Here's a thought - what if a state once removed from the border started checking papers at its southern border? Kind of a "You might have gotten into Texas, but you're not coming into Oklahoma" type of thing.

What if Oregon, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana all did it?
 
Well, I am not sure if you are serious or not, but I can give you an idea of what would happen in Nevada.
On any given weekend, traffic is backed up for 50 miles coming into and out of Las Vegas from California. Now imagine "checking papers" on all these people. The Las Vegas economy would die on the vine because no one wants to go through the hassle of getting there.
The traffic coming from Arizona would be a little easier to manage. If you come across Hoover Dam, you are already stopped and a brief exchange takes place because Hoover dam is throught to be a terrorist target. However, you can just come from Laughlin and aviod that all together.
 
I would love to help out and be #504, but I simply don't have the money for it now.

It's a shame that it has come to this... Having to do the work of the government cause they won't do it themselves.
 
Regardless of the circumstances the outcome can only be good as the national media will jump on this like ugly on and ape - especially if the Michael Jackson trial is having a slow month. I hope that the person(s) interviewed is articulate and coherent and not some mouth breathing, tooth sucking twit who just fell off of his barstool. Perhaps when the security moms, soccer dads, and their ilk get some exposure to the problem they will make enough noise that the politicians on both sides of the isle can no longer ignore the issue.
 
The problem is that the government (state, local, federal) either doesn't want to stop illegal immigration or is unwilling to do what it takes.
There are far easier ways to stop illegal immigration than patrolling our borders.
If it was not worthwhile to hire these people, and the government stopped catering to them: they wouldn't want to come here.
For example: let's say that anyone convicted of hiring illegal aliens is required to forfeit 100% of their personal assets and do 10 years in prison. If it is a corportation, the board of directors will be the ones that forfeit their assests and do the time. No welfare will be given, no food stamps will be given, no ADC, no free cheese, no free education,no free medical care, no government service or agency will be done in any language but English.
You could disolve the Border Patrol, they wouldn't be needed.
But, obviously this isn't what is being done and you have to ask yourself why ?
 
I have been wondering who to contact about companies using illegal workers. For example, at many of the McDonald's around town here, one pretty much has to order in Espanol to get it right.

Is there a national hotline, kinda like the Software industries Piracy hotline?

Obviously calling INS or the Border Patrol will be ineffective.
 
DocZinn wrote:

Worst case: some nutjob does get in, and shoots an illegal. It will make the news.

My prediction: the first shoot of an alien, by a nutjob or not, justified or not, will be made an example of.

316
 
I have never had any difficulty getting the Border Patrol to come retreive illegals. For about 5 years I lived in the first house north of the Orogrande BP checkpoint Thats a 40 mile walk for Mr. Illegal. We had them wander by all the time. I have called the BP many times and gotten a fast response. All it took to detain an Illegal was a glass of water and some shade.

Capture isn't really the problem. Doing something with them is the problem.
We need to do something a little bit different. Maybe a scarlet IA on the forhead and an immediate 1 way ticket to Venezuela to make the walk back a bit longer and remind Mr Chavez of his place in world society. No appeal, due process is your ticket. I could go with 444's suggestion but we all know that isn't very likely. Maybe we could get the Volunteer BP to detain the BOD of Tyson and Gold Kist and deport them?

Sam
 
Two things are obvious:

1) The people who run America, from D.C., don't want to stop illegal immigration.

2) The tax-paying citizens of America do not control this government any more.

I envision a downward spiral. There will, sooner or later, as things are going now, be one or more "ugly incidents." The Feds will come down hard on the American citizen who dares to do the job they won't. More disgruntled Americans will arise. The Feds will get nastier. And their nastiness will beget yet more ugliness. I think we saw the first augury of all this in Oklahoma City, unforunately. When the root is diseased, the fruit will be rotten.
 
In Dallas at least the talk shows are neutral or supportive of the Minute Men (MM) deal. They had Gilchrist on the radio this AM and he sounded sincere and logical in every respect. He did not impress me as a racist in the least.

Did anyone actually believe the national press would be anything but negative about this issue? I would have been shocked stiff if the main line media came out in favor of the MM project.

The very best equipment these guys could take to the Border would be some first class video equipment for every team and a bunch of cell phones. They should try to stop and hold no one. W/i 24 hours the word will be back in Mexico these guys are not detaining anyone and the flood will continue. Meanwhile it would be priceless IF the MM had enough extra guys to tail the BP and show them not catching anyone during this period after what, hundreds of cell phone calls with GPS locations where to catch the illegals.

Thousands of minutes of the illegal hord busting across would be worth more to the MM and the movement to stop illegal immigration than any number of illegals scared back across to Mexico.

The one thing .gov cannot tolerate is this upstart group showing categorically just how poorly those tasked with controlling the border are doing their job or not doing it at all. Hence the threats. As for Mr. Gilchrist, no matter how things go I bet he ends up on the short end of .gov's stick one way or the other. They can't be having uppity citizens like Gilchrist and the MM group.

S-
 
Until some high profile terrorist act occurs here, fed gov will do nothing to control the border.

Don't wan't to piss on yur boot and tell ya it's rainin, but Captain, the planes ran into the buildings three years ago. 2500 people got killed, the American economy tanked, and we lost over half a trillion in economic activity, not to mention the future spending the government will incur to make sure every grandma and girl scout get's frisked at the gate while Sayeed walks by unfettered to the airplane. The feds have opened the border. I do live down here, sixty one miles to the Sonora, MX border, been burglarized three times in the last five years, see more Mexican plates at the Price Club every Saturday than AZ plates. And I don't expect it to change. As posted previously, the politics of the BP, and the powers that be back east, don't allow them to do the work they are commisioned to do. I'm not a fan, but I've worked around those guys enough to know that they get 'non-interdiction' notices occasionally, and they don't like it. This whole deal (MM) has gotten quite a bit of airplay on the right wing morning show lately, and has public support from the likes of me,and others like me, although the media WILL hunt down the missing link when they portray the average guy that came down to help out. And yes, we'll have out local bleeding hearts down there documenting any abuses, I'm sure our leftist congressman(Grijalva) has already lined up his crowd of bed wetting hippies to protest the whole thing.

Some of the folks down there have already taken a beating in the press, Simcox comes to mind, for doing this exact thing for the last couple years on private property. One of the ranchers down there got in a pissing contest with the county sheriff for holding about fifteen of them at gunpoint, and I believe he was charged in the incident. Again on his private property. This cannot have any better outcome, even if you watch it play out on FOX news.

I personally hope this comes out good, but I could not in good conscience go down there and risk being put in jail for doing nothing illegal, because I can assure you the dogs will be groomed and the ponies brushed for this show. FBI and co. hasn't had this many insurgents in one place since, hell I don't know.... WACO?

For now I've said my piece, The local Fox affiliate has a story about this at 9. They led with something about' why are federal authorities concerned about the upcoming............. I can see trouble ahead. Will post the local news outlook on this later.

___________________________________________________________________________________________-

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependency;
from dependency back again to bondage."

Sir Alex Fraser Tytler
 
The U.S. federales are infinitely more concerned about law-abiding American citizens patrolling the borders than the illegal aliens who've been flooding across it all this time.

Says a lot about Tío Sam's priorities.
 
Here's a peek at how the media will portray the coming events, you see if you can spot the bias. ;)

From the AZ Daily Star, 23 FEB 05 .




PALOMINAS - Picture it: hundreds of Americans fed up with illegal immigration, descending on the U.S.-Mexico border with sidearms, pepper spray, cell phones and binoculars, their numbers reinforced with airplanes and spotters on hilltops. Their goal: to stop illegal entrants from crossing or to shame the U.S. government into finally sealing that border.

Organizers of the Minuteman Project say the scenario will become reality on April 1.

But those organizers have made similar statements in the past, generating a steady barrage of newspaper and television stories. Meanwhile, law enforcement officials and other experts say they have failed to produce substantive results.

And some wonder if anything will be different this time, especially since the organizers have failed to provide any proof of the involvement of 550 people they say have volunteered already.

"Obviously, this is driven by a desire for publicity as opposed to a desire for results," Gov. Janet Napolitano said when asked about the project at a press conference recently.

The last "call to arms" issued by one of the Minuteman Project founders resulted in a handful of volunteers and unproven contentions that they had detained more than 4,000 illegal entrants. The irony is that the same media that have reported the membership numbers without verification could fuel the hype and incite a mob to head to the border this time around, officials say.

Whether anybody other than newspaper and television crews will show up this time is dubious, some say, given the organizers' history.

Consider:

● In November 2002, Minuteman Project founder Chris Simcox said dozens of people would come out for his much-debated Civil Homeland Defense, the Tombstone-based group that was supposed to patrol the border, gather up illegal entrants, turn them over to the U.S. Border Patrol and show up the federal government for not doing its job.

The group has seized about 150 illegal entrants, a far cry from the 4,000 Simcox contends have been apprehended since he started two years ago, according to Miguel Escobar, Mexican consul in Douglas. The consulate responds to every citizen's encounter.

By contrast, Escobar has tracked at least 65 incidents in which citizens stopped entrants since 1999, when groups and individuals such as Cochise rancher Roger Barnett, American Border Patrol and Ranch Rescue began apprehensions in Cochise County.

● The Border Patrol has had three to five instances in which citizens were standing with a captured group of illegal entrants in the past year, said Tucson Sector spokesman Andy Adame. By contrast, the agency receives 300 to 500 anonymous calls from other civilians each month, he said. The agency has adopted a "wait and see" attitude toward the Minuteman Project.

● A handful of people showed up at the first organizational meeting of the Civil Homeland Defense on Dec. 7, 2002. Fifty were expected.

● On Jan. 1, 2003, two volunteers showed up for the first training session. Four reporters were there to greet them.

National media attention

This time, the newest border-plugging effort is garnering media attention across Arizona and nationally, from Los Angeles to Virginia, weeks before any volunteers are even expected to arrive.

"The problem is, for some reason, it's gotten a lot more publicity," said Paul Charlton, U.S. attorney for Arizona. "My fear is it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy."

Fueling the media hype: The "sexy" topic of hundreds of people going into Cochise County - with its Wild West roots dating back to the O.K. Corral - to do a job the federal government can't do and that is just too good to pass up, even if it's not really true, experts and officials say.

A recent news story reports "nearly 500 volunteers have already joined the Minuteman Project." Another story puts the number at 1,000 volunteers.

Since November, dozens of newspaper, radio and television crews have descended on the border, intent on a big story of an armed militia hunting down illegal border crossers.

On a recent ride-along, Simcox and two volunteers did not encounter any illegal entrants but did take along five reporters and photographers from the Arizona Daily Star, Channel 33 in Sierra Vista and National Public Radio in Switzerland. Using a trash-strewed spot of desert as a platform, Simcox railed against illegal immigration.

He says he and Minuteman Project co-founder James Gilchrist have rounded up 550 people to patrol the Cochise County-Mexico border for a month starting April 1. But neither man would turn over any list of volunteers to verify that many people had signed up.

The newspaper and broadcast news attention the project is receiving makes the group seem more effective than it really is, media experts say.

"There is an attraction to the vigilante in American culture … so it's not too surprising that there'd be an attempt to romanticize this kind of thing," said Jim Naureckas, editor of Extra!, a magazine published by Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, a national media-watch group.

The story, involving illegal-immigration protests fueled by a vigilante group calling out hundreds of people, centers on a "sexy, intriguing topic," said Bill Mitchell, editor of Poynter Online, the Web site of The Poynter Institute, a media training organization. He spoke generally - because he wasn't familiar with the project - about how the media can create a story that may not be there.

"What's the evidence that there is a serious group of people actually going to do it?" Mitchell asked, outlining the media's reporting obligation. "You have to be skeptical and consistent in nailing down what's going to happen, as opposed to writing down someone's claim in advance."

But Simcox, who enjoys relating anecdotes and is hard to pin down on specifics, has learned to use the media, acknowledging that Civil Homeland Defense is really "just for show."

By his estimates, he has given at least 400 interviews since issuing his "call to arms" through his weekly newspaper, the Tombstone Tumbleweed, in 2002. That includes 60 interviews since December on the Minuteman Project.

"The media just doesn't stop coming," Simcox said. "I've done Germany, France, England, Spain, Korea and Japan."

Sheriff wary of problems

Meanwhile, area residents worry about what the project will bring if it does materialize.

If anything actually comes of the movement, Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever foresees problems ranging from the possibility that the event will attract a criminal element to the chance that protesters will trespass on private property.

Palominas resident John Waters supports the effort and plans to offer discounted food and free parking to Minuteman volunteers at his restaurant, the Palominas Trading Post, southeast of Sierra Vista and less than two miles from the border. He is tired of the cut fences, slashed water lines, garbage and "disease" that illegal entrants bring.

Some residents worry that the group will drive drug and immigrant smugglers to even more violent tactics and leave chaos in their wake.

"It's going to cause problems for the people that live here, especially if they're carrying firearms," Clinton Cox said as he pitched horseshoes in the front yard of his home, off Arizona 92, east of Sierra Vista.

"If they pull a weapon on any of those Mexicans down there, they'll be dead," said his friend, Tony Miller, grinning. "Those smugglers don't carry 'side-arms.' "

And in some cases, the people who are the cause of the protest - illegal entrants - aren't particularly worried.

Walking across the border back onto the gritty streets of Naco, Sonora, a group of deportees only grinned or shrugged when asked if the project would deter their crossing.

"What of it?" asked Miguel Martínez, 26, who was captured in the Cochise County desert. "I'll go around them, obviously."

________________________________________________________________________________________

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependency;
from dependency back again to bondage."

Ales Fraser Tytler
 
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The Feds can stigmatize the "vigilantes" if they choose. But they need to be very careful about turning them into martyrs. There's a huge reservoir of anti-illegal immigration feeling ready to be drilled. If George Bush really wants his own Waco, I guess nothing short of a personal visitation by Our Lady of Guadalupe can stop it.
 
I have heard the prediction many times that an all out tax revolution is inevitable. I think another is inevitable: an armed revolution against the illegal Mexican invaders (common illegals and corrupt military element who thumb their noses are our soverignty and our private property)
 
I don't know if there is a "good" solution to this problem. My guess is that the part of Latin American culture which values looking out for one's family above the common good may be the root cause of the problem. It is the reason corruption is rampant in Latin American countries and it tends to be accepted behavior due to the cultural bias toward it. Illegal immigrants seem to be following a path of least resistance, it is easier to emigrate illegally and risk the consequences than to stay and change the system. They really have nothing to lose by doing so. Capturing them at the border and returning them to Mexico seems a waste of time and money, what's to stop them from turning right around and repeating their performance? Locking them up in this country is another expensive alternative. I suppose we could all line up and shoot them as they cross the border, but, sooner or later, I think we would all have second thoughts about the wisdom in that. I wish I had an answer, but the best I can do is to suggest that the real problem is with Mexico, not just with Mexicans.
 
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