JD Pinardi
Member
Have a Romanian for quite a few years, never a hiccup, but I did change the stocks to a poly that fits me better.
Happy Shootin'
JD
Happy Shootin'
JD
Getting my first AK
- Thread starter K_Dubbya
- Start date
- Status
Hokkmike
Member
Norinco Mak 90 or, the Holy Grail of AK's - Poly Tech Legend. It is good that you said you have lots of ammo, because these things love to eat.
3% outdoorsman
Member
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2020
- Messages
- 33
Current production get a zastava zpap or wbp poland for the money.z paps now have chrome lined barrels.love my sgl-21 and slr106 but neither are available now
Ignition Override
Member
K_Dubbya: If you mentioned a price limit, I missed it.
And if you decide on anything which says "....Century..." :
* Buy AKMs >>>...Imported by Century...<<< ...Not subcontracted/designed For Century.
Are you also becoming familiar with the other popular 7.62x39 rifle, the Czech VZ-58? You realize that it is Not an AKM derivative. All have milled receivers, but no parts are interchangeable--not even magazines.
And they weigh less than AKMs.
Many people are quite happy with their Century-built VZ-2008, but the Czechpoint/CSA VZ-58 appears to be as close to the true military rifles as you can have. Mine has used at least 1,500 rds.and is 100% reliable.
Chrome-lined, chf barrels manufactured in Germany by Lothar, for Czech Small Arms.
The D-Technik VZ-58 brand has also been known to be of the highest quality, using Czech components.
*
K_Dubbya: are you now familiar with "Misha"/ "mishaco" on Youtube, who is a very astute depository of AKM and VZ knowledge?
And if you decide on anything which says "....Century..." :
* Buy AKMs >>>...Imported by Century...<<< ...Not subcontracted/designed For Century.
Are you also becoming familiar with the other popular 7.62x39 rifle, the Czech VZ-58? You realize that it is Not an AKM derivative. All have milled receivers, but no parts are interchangeable--not even magazines.
And they weigh less than AKMs.
Many people are quite happy with their Century-built VZ-2008, but the Czechpoint/CSA VZ-58 appears to be as close to the true military rifles as you can have. Mine has used at least 1,500 rds.and is 100% reliable.
Chrome-lined, chf barrels manufactured in Germany by Lothar, for Czech Small Arms.
The D-Technik VZ-58 brand has also been known to be of the highest quality, using Czech components.
*
K_Dubbya: are you now familiar with "Misha"/ "mishaco" on Youtube, who is a very astute depository of AKM and VZ knowledge?
Everyone should have an AK. Like most things top of the line AKs have better quality, cosmetics, and are super reliable . Unlike most bottom of the line things, basic AKs while not as pretty, shoot the same way and are super reliable. There's an AK for every taste and budget. My MAK90 is always first pick of my Yankee friends when they come to the Gunshine State.
Project355
Member
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2020
- Messages
- 672
Mine is US made milled receiver and US barrel, with Hungarian parts. AK63d underfolder. Still tight. Still goes bang. Accuracy.... What the sights allow
Seriously, almost no issues (had to fit the muzzle blast drflector) and nicely refinished wood, for an AK that is.
Seriously, almost no issues (had to fit the muzzle blast drflector) and nicely refinished wood, for an AK that is.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
So far as I’m concerned that is a perfect summary.
I have a WASR and I treat it like I hate it, therefore I love it. It’s dented, dinged, scratched, a little rusty. I’ve cleaned it once, the day I got it, and the only problem I’ve ever had is a slam fire. I put a squirt of brake clean down the firing pin hole and went to town. That gun has somewhere north of 15k through it.
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
You are on the right track, Yugo or PSA is where I’d be looking now - for a new AK. If I stumbled across a Saiga, VEPR or Chinese (Norinco, Poly-tech) I’d jump on it.
You sort of have to understand how AKs have been imported to skirt import restrictions to determine quality, possible Bubba content, and what is important to you. Full AK rifles have too many foreign parts, they can only be "assembled" with a maximum of 10 imported parts (27 CFR 478.39). So lots have things have been done to get around it these restrictions.
- The Chinese rifles are among the best because they were imported in the 1980s before Tiananmen square, and the passage of these rules. Bubba is not involved in their assembly. However, these rifles are generally heavy, if you plan on carrying it any distance.
- Up until about the mid-2000s, it was possible to import barrels and the WASR/AMDs and others of the day could be decent. But quality could be hit or miss, since the heavy assembly was done here post-import by Bubba, either in his garage or while working at Century.
- WASRs and other parts kits rifles of the past 10 years ago, generally have lousy green mountain AK barrels -- and who knows who assembles them.
- Various sporting purposes exemptions have been granted over the years. These are among the best if you can find them, since the heavy assembly was done at a real military assembly line. However, a little Bubba was still required. These come in several flavors, the single stack WASR's were great, so long as the mag well was opened properly -- if not you got the dreaded mag wobble. By this point, any that are still floating around have probably been converted somewhere along the way since single stack mags have evaporated. The Russian Saiga and VEPRs are excellent, the weird stock was necessary to get the sporting exemption, and allows the importation of a barreled action. Once you have the barreled action, and Bubba (yourself included) can swap in the furniture you want. Saiga's and VEPRs have funny mag catches, to limit the mags. However, this can easily be adjusted with a file to the rifle catch (to accept mil-spec mags) or to mil-spec mag catch which is really easy and idiot proof - if you screw up you can throw away a $10 mag. However, Russian Rifles have dried up since Russia invaded Ukraine and we slapped sanctions on Russia. Before that, inventories were sporadic because the were only shipped once or twice a year. The Yugo Rifles are currently the cream of the crop. Zastava's U.S. subsidiary converts them here. However, until recently (2020) Zastava did not chrome line barrels - if that is important to you.
- Yugo pistols M85 and M92 are pistols. So the rifle restrictions do not apply. You get a full factory built AK, albeit without a stock. I'd recommend the SBR route, if you hadn't already said you are not interested.
- I am not 100% sure how Arsenal goes about business. However, I don't think they are worth the money. Last time I was at the range, a guy was having issues with one and was looking for a rod to knock out a stuck case. I've never seen anyone run one hard and reliably.
- I have not handled a PSA, but I appreciate their reputation for functional, reliable products at a good price (of which I have many). I think this ethos translates perfectly to AKs, and I would rely on it to get an AK if I were in the market. I would trust them to get it right (especially if it has an FN barrel).
Finally, you may want to consider an AR in 7.62x39. The C-products mags seem to have resolved all the magazine feeding/reliability issues, which was always the downside of the platform. If you don't have an AK, then mag compatibility is not an issue either. Bearcreek has 7.62x39 uppers in stock right now for ~ $350. If you have an AR lower, you can be blasting away your ammo for under $400 once you get a couple mags.
You sort of have to understand how AKs have been imported to skirt import restrictions to determine quality, possible Bubba content, and what is important to you. Full AK rifles have too many foreign parts, they can only be "assembled" with a maximum of 10 imported parts (27 CFR 478.39). So lots have things have been done to get around it these restrictions.
- The Chinese rifles are among the best because they were imported in the 1980s before Tiananmen square, and the passage of these rules. Bubba is not involved in their assembly. However, these rifles are generally heavy, if you plan on carrying it any distance.
- Up until about the mid-2000s, it was possible to import barrels and the WASR/AMDs and others of the day could be decent. But quality could be hit or miss, since the heavy assembly was done here post-import by Bubba, either in his garage or while working at Century.
- WASRs and other parts kits rifles of the past 10 years ago, generally have lousy green mountain AK barrels -- and who knows who assembles them.
- Various sporting purposes exemptions have been granted over the years. These are among the best if you can find them, since the heavy assembly was done at a real military assembly line. However, a little Bubba was still required. These come in several flavors, the single stack WASR's were great, so long as the mag well was opened properly -- if not you got the dreaded mag wobble. By this point, any that are still floating around have probably been converted somewhere along the way since single stack mags have evaporated. The Russian Saiga and VEPRs are excellent, the weird stock was necessary to get the sporting exemption, and allows the importation of a barreled action. Once you have the barreled action, and Bubba (yourself included) can swap in the furniture you want. Saiga's and VEPRs have funny mag catches, to limit the mags. However, this can easily be adjusted with a file to the rifle catch (to accept mil-spec mags) or to mil-spec mag catch which is really easy and idiot proof - if you screw up you can throw away a $10 mag. However, Russian Rifles have dried up since Russia invaded Ukraine and we slapped sanctions on Russia. Before that, inventories were sporadic because the were only shipped once or twice a year. The Yugo Rifles are currently the cream of the crop. Zastava's U.S. subsidiary converts them here. However, until recently (2020) Zastava did not chrome line barrels - if that is important to you.
- Yugo pistols M85 and M92 are pistols. So the rifle restrictions do not apply. You get a full factory built AK, albeit without a stock. I'd recommend the SBR route, if you hadn't already said you are not interested.
- I am not 100% sure how Arsenal goes about business. However, I don't think they are worth the money. Last time I was at the range, a guy was having issues with one and was looking for a rod to knock out a stuck case. I've never seen anyone run one hard and reliably.
- I have not handled a PSA, but I appreciate their reputation for functional, reliable products at a good price (of which I have many). I think this ethos translates perfectly to AKs, and I would rely on it to get an AK if I were in the market. I would trust them to get it right (especially if it has an FN barrel).
Finally, you may want to consider an AR in 7.62x39. The C-products mags seem to have resolved all the magazine feeding/reliability issues, which was always the downside of the platform. If you don't have an AK, then mag compatibility is not an issue either. Bearcreek has 7.62x39 uppers in stock right now for ~ $350. If you have an AR lower, you can be blasting away your ammo for under $400 once you get a couple mags.
brunowbe
Member
^^^^had some good points..........then ruined his entire post with the dreaded “you may want to consider an AR”. If I could downvote the post, I would. Not everyone wants an AR.
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
I get it. But the OP didn't say no AR, he said "no pistols or SBRs". He also said:
ARs are much better hosts for "gee whiz gear," and parts commonality (even for 7.62x39) is probably better. A $350 upper is a cheaper way of blowing through 7.62x39, and simpler way of adding a bipod/optic/light/silencer/37mm launcher or whatever else you may want to hang on your gun.
This is going to be a long post, but I really hope you read through all of it because I went through this exact same roller coaster a few months ago. I have some input that might save you some headaches and I just want to share that I put a very significant thought into this.
My friend who said he used a single action Heritage Rough Rider to fight off a thousand ISIS rebels. That means it's the best firearm ever, right?
The first thing to remember is that even great companies have lemons. I once bought a Ruger LC9s that had the firing pin break on the first magazine, a Ruger security six bicentennial model that had parts missing from it, and (most recently) a Ruger mini-14 that literally had the trigger assembly fall out of the weapon when I was firing it. I've also had nothing but stellar performance from Century Arms firearms -- including weapons I've personally seen shoot thousands of rounds over several years at significant distances. Does that mean Ruger turns out a crappy product and Century Arms turns out gold? Absolutely not. It means that anecdotal evidence is just that -- anecdotal. Whether it's weapons, cars, prophylactics, or cigarettes, you get the ultimate say in what products you like and how much leniency you're willing to give a company for when they fail to deliver. Just because I've had mixed results with Ruger doesn't mean it's a bad company. Lots of people will give our opinions (and when people are passionate about firearms you can expect strong opinions), but you'll have to evaluate it against evidence.
What about PSA's AKs?
My experience and research indicates that that all of the criticisms of PSA AKs are true. I did not want to believe this when I started researching AKs because I really like a lot of PSA's other products and, when I was looking for an AK, they boasted a really nice price point. However, after doing a substantial amount of reading, the criticisms are definitely widespread enough to at least merit discussion. The most consistent of these is that a lot of people have problems with their iron sights. I've read everything form the rear sight leaf literally bouncing around when you shoot it to it falling off the weapon when users have adjusted it. Their accuracy is also up for debate and, before everybody rushes in and starts downplaying the accuracy of the AK platform in general, quality AKs are actually between 2 and 3 MOA. 9 Hole Reviews did a video in 2018 shooting the Type 56 Assault Rifle (Chinese AK) out to 500 yards with iron sights. They performed 2x shots per target from 150y to 500y, segmented per 50 yards, and published their range conversions from meters to yards on the video. The weapon in question was a Norinco Type 56 from Chinese Armory (no.66). It was shot with mil-spec Barnaul 7.62x39mm ammunition and the shooter is a veteran (someone with actual basic rifle marksmanship training). The best reports I've seen from PSA are around 4 MOA, and most of those folks appear to be using optics.
Unfortunately, there's quite a list. By version, I've heard V1 build kits having canted front sights and rust ( ), and triggers breaking on the first mag ( https://www.reddit.com/r/ak47/comments/c3atch/wbp_fox_vs_psak47_gen_3/erprgau/).
The V2:
That said, there are folks (one in particular on this forum) who insist the PSA AKs are actually more accurate than they're given credit for. I also recall one shooter posting up pictures of his shot groups with a rifle that had an optic -- meaning he wasn't relying on iron sights. I've also seen videos of shooters (with optics) using a myriad of different ammo and still getting around 4 MOA. That might reflect on the shooter more than anything but you won't know your performance with something until you're actually behind the trigger. Also, Rob Ski did do a review of PSA GF3 and spoke pretty highly of it after 5000 rounds. He did the same with a separate PSA AK.
So again, your mileage will vary.
Why are there all these complains about American AKs? Aren't Americans great at manufacturing firearms?
One of the big things people forget is that many of these soviet countries that manufacture AKs had actual government engineers oversee production for a while. They were given special instruction on metals, measurements, and common problems encountered with the platform. Americans got no such luxury, and you either had the geniuses at Century either hacking away at weapons that were imported or groups like PSA trying to take their best guesses at building them. As an engineer, I can tell you firsthand that even the most intelligent people will most likely remake the same mistakes in reinventing the wheel as opposed to having other folks who have been there explain the common pitfalls first. There's a substantial knowledge gap that I'm confident American ingenuity can overcome, but the first truly made American AKs are actually quite recent. Hence the wisdom:
To that note, Mishaco has talked to this issue pretty extensively.
Well that's great, but what am I supposed to do?
The first thing I'd tell you is it depends on what you're buying the AK for. Are you hunting hogs? To impress your friends? As a primary SHTF weapon? To pass down to your grandson? You've got to answer these before you can answer which weapon is worth it. Maybe you just want to shoot cans behind on the farm and kill bad guys if they break into your house. At that point, 4 MOA probably isn't going to be an issue and PSA might be your guy. Maybe you're enthusiastic about the platform and want something you can baby? In that case, you might want something else.
I highly recommend this. Find out what's available online, in gun stores, and in private sale. Then check What Rob Ski has to say about it. Again, lemons happen, but this guy really runs these things through significant testing. Also, like I said, he spoke pretty highly of some PSAs.
Which ones have consistent, reliable reputations?
Century
Century's RH10s are solid. They come with cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels and have reports of 2.75 MOA. That said they are more pricey and it's hard to find metal mags that will actually fit inside of them. PMAGs work great, but even metal mags that are designed to fit into WASR-10s don't always fit in RH10s. The design is also slightly different, which purists don't like.
If you can find a lightly used WASR-10 and know what common problems to look for, you can get a solid rifle (but you're probably paying more than was worth just three yeas ago). However, I personally foresee the prices of firearms / ammunition going up long term and another possible Assault Weapons Ban, so the days of a few hundred dollar AK might go the way of the $70 Mosin Nagant. That said, what counts as a "reasonable" price for an AK is up for debate, and if/when they come back down totally is up for debate.
I've heard nothing good at all about VSKAs, including complete headspace loss at 1000 rounds and these things literally blowing up on people. They look nice but, even during the initial covid-19 / election gun rush, I've seen these sitting on the shelves because people don't want them.
Siagas are very good. I found one very lightly used with 5 new (metal) magazines and 300 rounds of ammo for <$600 through private sale. I passed on it because I wanted something brand new, but that was an amazing price. These bargains are out there if you know where to look.
Norinco also has a very reliable reputation.
Riley Defense / Pioneer arms
These have mixed reviews.
The only thing I'd add is you might want to look into a Czech VZ 58. It's not an AKM and shares no parts with the AK, but they're much cheaper and have great reviews as well.
Just my thoughts. Sorry to write you a novella here but I went through this same damn thing a few months ago and I hope you (or others) gets some value out of it.
My friend who said he used a single action Heritage Rough Rider to fight off a thousand ISIS rebels. That means it's the best firearm ever, right?
The first thing to remember is that even great companies have lemons. I once bought a Ruger LC9s that had the firing pin break on the first magazine, a Ruger security six bicentennial model that had parts missing from it, and (most recently) a Ruger mini-14 that literally had the trigger assembly fall out of the weapon when I was firing it. I've also had nothing but stellar performance from Century Arms firearms -- including weapons I've personally seen shoot thousands of rounds over several years at significant distances. Does that mean Ruger turns out a crappy product and Century Arms turns out gold? Absolutely not. It means that anecdotal evidence is just that -- anecdotal. Whether it's weapons, cars, prophylactics, or cigarettes, you get the ultimate say in what products you like and how much leniency you're willing to give a company for when they fail to deliver. Just because I've had mixed results with Ruger doesn't mean it's a bad company. Lots of people will give our opinions (and when people are passionate about firearms you can expect strong opinions), but you'll have to evaluate it against evidence.
What about PSA's AKs?
My experience and research indicates that that all of the criticisms of PSA AKs are true. I did not want to believe this when I started researching AKs because I really like a lot of PSA's other products and, when I was looking for an AK, they boasted a really nice price point. However, after doing a substantial amount of reading, the criticisms are definitely widespread enough to at least merit discussion. The most consistent of these is that a lot of people have problems with their iron sights. I've read everything form the rear sight leaf literally bouncing around when you shoot it to it falling off the weapon when users have adjusted it. Their accuracy is also up for debate and, before everybody rushes in and starts downplaying the accuracy of the AK platform in general, quality AKs are actually between 2 and 3 MOA. 9 Hole Reviews did a video in 2018 shooting the Type 56 Assault Rifle (Chinese AK) out to 500 yards with iron sights. They performed 2x shots per target from 150y to 500y, segmented per 50 yards, and published their range conversions from meters to yards on the video. The weapon in question was a Norinco Type 56 from Chinese Armory (no.66). It was shot with mil-spec Barnaul 7.62x39mm ammunition and the shooter is a veteran (someone with actual basic rifle marksmanship training). The best reports I've seen from PSA are around 4 MOA, and most of those folks appear to be using optics.
Unfortunately, there's quite a list. By version, I've heard V1 build kits having canted front sights and rust ( ), and triggers breaking on the first mag ( https://www.reddit.com/r/ak47/comments/c3atch/wbp_fox_vs_psak47_gen_3/erprgau/).
The V2:
- G2 - Rear trunnion broke
- Receiver cracks because user installed surplus stock | PSA blames user saying the receiver is only designed to use US made furniture (PSA and Magul)
- G3 - Firing Pin Retainer Pin falls out the WRONG way
- PSAKGF3 with an extremely loose rivet on the front trunnion
- **ALL** the rivets come loose in front trunnion
- G2 rear trunnion broke while cleaning
That said, there are folks (one in particular on this forum) who insist the PSA AKs are actually more accurate than they're given credit for. I also recall one shooter posting up pictures of his shot groups with a rifle that had an optic -- meaning he wasn't relying on iron sights. I've also seen videos of shooters (with optics) using a myriad of different ammo and still getting around 4 MOA. That might reflect on the shooter more than anything but you won't know your performance with something until you're actually behind the trigger. Also, Rob Ski did do a review of PSA GF3 and spoke pretty highly of it after 5000 rounds. He did the same with a separate PSA AK.
So again, your mileage will vary.
Why are there all these complains about American AKs? Aren't Americans great at manufacturing firearms?
One of the big things people forget is that many of these soviet countries that manufacture AKs had actual government engineers oversee production for a while. They were given special instruction on metals, measurements, and common problems encountered with the platform. Americans got no such luxury, and you either had the geniuses at Century either hacking away at weapons that were imported or groups like PSA trying to take their best guesses at building them. As an engineer, I can tell you firsthand that even the most intelligent people will most likely remake the same mistakes in reinventing the wheel as opposed to having other folks who have been there explain the common pitfalls first. There's a substantial knowledge gap that I'm confident American ingenuity can overcome, but the first truly made American AKs are actually quite recent. Hence the wisdom:
To that note, Mishaco has talked to this issue pretty extensively.
Well that's great, but what am I supposed to do?
The first thing I'd tell you is it depends on what you're buying the AK for. Are you hunting hogs? To impress your friends? As a primary SHTF weapon? To pass down to your grandson? You've got to answer these before you can answer which weapon is worth it. Maybe you just want to shoot cans behind on the farm and kill bad guys if they break into your house. At that point, 4 MOA probably isn't going to be an issue and PSA might be your guy. Maybe you're enthusiastic about the platform and want something you can baby? In that case, you might want something else.
I highly recommend this. Find out what's available online, in gun stores, and in private sale. Then check What Rob Ski has to say about it. Again, lemons happen, but this guy really runs these things through significant testing. Also, like I said, he spoke pretty highly of some PSAs.
Which ones have consistent, reliable reputations?
Century
Century's RH10s are solid. They come with cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels and have reports of 2.75 MOA. That said they are more pricey and it's hard to find metal mags that will actually fit inside of them. PMAGs work great, but even metal mags that are designed to fit into WASR-10s don't always fit in RH10s. The design is also slightly different, which purists don't like.
If you can find a lightly used WASR-10 and know what common problems to look for, you can get a solid rifle (but you're probably paying more than was worth just three yeas ago). However, I personally foresee the prices of firearms / ammunition going up long term and another possible Assault Weapons Ban, so the days of a few hundred dollar AK might go the way of the $70 Mosin Nagant. That said, what counts as a "reasonable" price for an AK is up for debate, and if/when they come back down totally is up for debate.
I've heard nothing good at all about VSKAs, including complete headspace loss at 1000 rounds and these things literally blowing up on people. They look nice but, even during the initial covid-19 / election gun rush, I've seen these sitting on the shelves because people don't want them.
Siagas are very good. I found one very lightly used with 5 new (metal) magazines and 300 rounds of ammo for <$600 through private sale. I passed on it because I wanted something brand new, but that was an amazing price. These bargains are out there if you know where to look.
Norinco also has a very reliable reputation.
Riley Defense / Pioneer arms
These have mixed reviews.
The only thing I'd add is you might want to look into a Czech VZ 58. It's not an AKM and shares no parts with the AK, but they're much cheaper and have great reviews as well.
Just my thoughts. Sorry to write you a novella here but I went through this same damn thing a few months ago and I hope you (or others) gets some value out of it.
You quoted every post of mine except the first one lol! I never recommended the PSA offering now did I, I only defended it later in another post. I personally will not buy one, but Rob Ski liked his, and BFLV ran one full auto, and it didn’t do too bad. All AK factory’s turn up some turds with bad rivets, canted sights, even Arsenal does that.
I understand that. For the record, I'm not even bashing PSA AKs. I just am very happy with my choice of not getting one. There are some really reliable, accurate modernized AKs floating around out there. I know the prices can be a bit high and I'm not trying to sound like a complete tool here, but I really see this stuff getting way harder to find.
Ignition Override
Member
Note that IO, Inter Ordnance) No Longer Produces AKM rifles.
The production was in Florida.
Rob Ski’s testing of an IO on AKOU channel reportedly was a factor in a serious drop in demand for their rifles.
Cost of production seems to be the top priority with any US-made AKM, in order to allow retail competition.
A very attractive rifle’s looks, and the label “US-Made” seem to be enough to seduce most people.
The production was in Florida.
Rob Ski’s testing of an IO on AKOU channel reportedly was a factor in a serious drop in demand for their rifles.
Cost of production seems to be the top priority with any US-made AKM, in order to allow retail competition.
A very attractive rifle’s looks, and the label “US-Made” seem to be enough to seduce most people.
I am glad there are those who still knock Arsenal. Leave the mid -90's milled Bulgarians, for me thank you very much!
They aren't any more accurate than a WASR, you don't want them.
And yes, my SLR 107 has a crooked rear sight. And yes it hits a 200 yd plate more often than a Sig 556R.
The main reason us made aks are poorly made is due the fact aks are very expensive to make. The only reason their were so cheap in the past was thanks to the sheer amount of factories making them. Now only a few factories are making them and most of those are banned from import. That's also the reason their getting expensive.
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