Getting squib rounds and baffled

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martinb3152

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Hello, haven't been here for awhile. I was out at the range today and had a terrible session. About half the way into my reloads, I started to get squib loads. Now I just didn't have one. I had a half a dozen or more. Shooting a Springfield XD9 4" service model and the reloads where CFE pistol 5.1grns, COL 1.30", and Winchester primers. I am reloading on a Dillon 550. I am not new to reloading. I am very careful when I reload. Plus this many squibs leads me think it could be directed to the primers. Is this correct? Could bad primers be a cause of a squib? I loaded up a 1000 rounds recently and now I don't know how many more could be affected if this is the case. Anyone?
thanks,
martinb3152
 
I could be wrong but I wouldn't blame the primers. I would say you had little or no powder in those cases.

Did you check to see if there was powder in your cases before you put a bullet on to seat them?
 
What does cfe pistol powder look like? When I started loading on a 550 I was getting squibs with Unique. Unique is flakes which sometimes don't fall due to bridging. I quit Unique and switched to Power Pistol and Universal, had good luck with both.
 
Weigh a bunch of your remaining reloads... If you find some underweight, pull them down and look inside.

If using mixed brass you may need to sort them a bit... 5.1 grains ain't much ya know..
 
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martinb3152 wrote:
I am not new to reloading. I am very careful when I reload. Plus this many squibs leads me think it could be directed to the primers. Is this correct? Could bad primers be a cause of a squib?

While it we can't summarily rule anything out, primers are unlikely to be the source of your problem.

When you pulled the trigger, something was ignited (the primer) that had enough force to launch the bullet out of the case. Had there been any powder in the case, that much of a "spark" would have been enough to have ignited the powder.

The place to look is at your equipment to ensure:
  • The powder measure actually had powder in it.
  • The powder measure was dispensing powder uniformly each time it was activated.
  • The Dillon 550 itself was functioning properly and nothing is broken.
  • The "powder cop" (you surely use one?) was present and functioning correctly.

If all that checks out, then it's time to look at your reloading procedures:
  • Are they documented?
  • Do you use a checklist?
  • Do you visually inspect each case before the bullet is seated to verify the presence of powder?
  • Was it completed for this batch?
  • Were you distracted while you were loading?
  • Were you drinking or under the influence of mind-altering substances (including over-the-counter cough and cold remedies)?
Odds are that if you run through these (and any other logically consequent questions that are specific to how you reload) you will find the cause of your squibs.

A half-dozen squibs is a cause for concern. Rather than breaking down the remnant of the 1,000 rounds, what I would do (and this is something I do for every round I assemble) is to weigh the components you used; bullet, primer and case. Set you balance to this figure plus 1 grain.

One after the other, weigh each round. It seems tedious, but it does pretty fast; I can do 100 rounds in about 10 minutes; so a thousand would take a couple hours. Any loaded round will have an excess weight of around 4 grains; this will pull the pan down quite decidedly when you put a charged round in it. Any round with no powder will either not pull down the pan, or will just barely start it to move. Pull the bullet on such rounds and check for the presence of powder and the weight. Odds are you will find an empty case or one grossly undercharged.

In 40+ years reloading, I have never had a squib. I attribute that to a comprehensive set of reloading procedures that are checked off every time I reload and include no fewer than three checks that powder is present in the case before the bullet is seated - combined with the fact that after assembly every round is check-weighed. People endlessly tell me I'm a fool to check-weigh my rounds and that I'm wasting my time, but my reply is that every time I have had an anomaly, there has been a problem - and it has been corrected before it turned into a tragedy.
 
Hello, haven't been here for awhile. I was out at the range today and had a terrible session. About half the way into my reloads, I started to get squib loads. Now I just didn't have one. I had a half a dozen or more. Shooting a Springfield XD9 4" service model and the reloads where CFE pistol 5.1grns, COL 1.30", and Winchester primers. I am reloading on a Dillon 550. I am not new to reloading. I am very careful when I reload. Plus this many squibs leads me think it could be directed to the primers. Is this correct? Could bad primers be a cause of a squib? I loaded up a 1000 rounds recently and now I don't know how many more could be affected if this is the case. Anyone?
thanks,
martinb3152

I'm not trying to be a smart a**, but IMHO, you aren't being careful enough. I have a 550 too, and it's a very reliable progressive press, but I look into every case before a bullet is added. Just my .02
 
I'm still using a single stage for the little reloading I do. I am extremely careful about each charge, and all the shells get lined up in a tray. Before I move on to seating I do a visual check to see that all cases look the same regarding powder levels. I'm looking for double charge or no charge. It happens...
 
Half a dozen squibs out of how many rounds fired? If that was out of say 50 trigger pulls and you had 6, it would be very likely that you would find an empty or very low powder charge in one case at least by the time you pulled 15 or 20 bullets. Maybe you had a static issue and had some powder bridging and so had some cases that ended up with little to no powder. Regardless of the reason, please don' fire these rounds, break them down. Maybe get a Grip n Pull bullet puller, and you could break down 20 in 10 minutes or less. When you say squib, are you referring to bullets that actually get lodged somewhere in the barrel, or just powder charges that failed to ignite?
Seriously doubt it is a primer issue although it is possible. There was a thread on THR awhile back, might have been a BDS "myth busting" thread. Either way, primers are remarkably tough and hard to kill unless you are very deliberately trying to ruin them.
 
My worry is not so much the squib but if the propellant was actually bridging and not dropping into the case every time then what about the cases that end up with the overcharge/double charge? You might be lucky and only have the measure not dropping a charge with those bad rounds-----BUT.:eek:

I agree you need to watch things better for safe ammo production. Your problem is the biggest reason I choose to not run a progressive press.
 
Won't help a bit.

I suggest looking at the measure and see if it is working correctly when running the press. Primers pretty much go off, or not, and if not, nothing happens. It's a powder variation issue.
Why won't it help?
In an effort to find out what's up, vs just pulling down the remaining 900 rds?
This would be one possible first step towards figuring out what's going on.
I think most replys are suggesting a powder drop failure, and I would agree with that.

*Yeah, just re-read what I wrote.. it is very much in line with what your saying. My suggestion is to determine which rounds are under charged by weighing them. I guess he could just throw the rest in the garbage and start over...
 
Why won't it help?
In an effort to find out what's up, vs just pulling down the remaining 900 rds?
This would be one possible first step towards figuring out what's going on.
I think most replys are suggesting a powder drop failure, and I would agree with that.

Weighing the cartridges will not help find the problem rounds because there is too much variation in the case weight and bullet weight and they will mask the faulty powder charges.

Lot of money down the tubes to just trash the rounds, the cases, primers, bullets and powder can be recovered and reused for some investment in time. Not very exciting to break down 900 rounds but a valuable education moment.

Folks routinely have some method of double checking their powder charge from visually checking each case or using one of the various powder check systems available from the press/die manufacturers.
 
Shooting a Springfield XD9 4" service model and the reloads where CFE pistol 5.1grns, COL 1.30", and Winchester primers. I am reloading on a Dillon 550. I am not new to reloading. I am very careful when I reload. Plus this many squibs leads me think it could be directed to the primers. Is this correct? Could bad primers be a cause of a squib? I loaded up a 1000 rounds recently and now I don't know how many more could be affected if this is the case. Anyone?
What bullet is this? Did you intend to say 1.13" for your OAL? I'm assuming you've plunk tested with the barrel in question.

Bad primers could definitely cause a squib load. Do you have a reason to suspect these primers in particular? I think seating problems outnumber the cases of bad primers substantially.

Any chance the brass wasn't quite dry?
 
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By squib do you mean they did not fire at all or they fired and stuck a bullet in the barrel?
Not firing at all is most likely due to the primers not being seated deep enough, or possibly bad primers. (usually called duds)
Usually if they are not seated deep enough they will fire on the second try.
Some people say it is ok to carefully re-seat the primers deeper, others say very bad idea.
Never ran into the issue of not having them deep enough since I hand prime and have excellent feel for them seating so I don't have a opinion on re-seating them. My thought would be to err on the side of caution.

Primers going off and sticking bullets/bullets not exiting barrel is most likely a powder (lack of) issue. (squibs)
Either no powder/or very little or possibly contaminated powder.
I don't know if you have a free station but I really like my RCBS lockout die. Helps keep no/low powder or to much powder sneaking thru.

Walkalong and others are right, weighing them won't do you any good.
Bullets easy + or - 1gr, sometimes more.
Same box of 9mm once fired cases + or -2 gr (I think it was a box of Federal and I weighed about 20 of them), mixed brass easy + or -5 gr case weight sometimes more.
So a heavy case with a heavy for weight bullet and no powder could way the same as a light case and light for weight bullet with powder.
Sample weights of some 9mm cases (mixed brass) I just weighed.
56.4 (WIN)
60.4 (WIN)
58.1 (Blazer)
57.7 (FC)
58.2 (Blazer)
59.2 (WIN)
57.6 (WIN)
62.6 (Agulia)
59.0, 59.6, 56.4, 61.5, 58.4, 60.3.....
So in a small sample I just weighed low 56.4, high 62.6, 6.2gr difference.
Note 4gr diff in two WIN cases


So if it is powder either shoot the rest carefully or pull them all and look for ones with no powder.
I would make sure they were all labeled WATCH for SQUIBS! or something to that effect.

CFE-P is fairly small flattened balls so I don't see it bridging (resulting in one being light and the next one being an overcharge)but I am not familiar with the Dillon measure, but I'm sure some of the guys here can tell you what hiccups the measure might have and how to fix them and how much you should worry about a charge being heavy (double) due to bridging when using that measure.

Hope you get it worked out.

Edit:
I will check tomorrow morning and see how much a case full of CFE-P weighs, IE would a double charge overflow. I have a feeling that a double charge of CFE-P in 9mm would = a kaboom, destroyed gun and possible shooter injury, so you need to try to figure out if it was a bridging issue or just a no charge issue. Bridging = pull them all
 
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Ok, well then I'd say to pull them all.
I knew the small charge weight would make it difficult, but didn't realize how much of a swing properly loaded rounds could have. My mistake.
 
You got some good advice and some that isn't so useful. In the interest of clarification, did the primers ignite, or not? If not, then it's most likely a seating issue. If they did go off, and stuck a bullet in the barrel, then it's a powder issue.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
FWIW I have loaded several tens of thousands of rounds on my 550 using large and small powder bars and a variety of stick and ball powders through 6 total powder measures (although not CFE specifically). I have never had a bridged charge. It MAY be possible if the powder clumps on the bar cavity itself, but something would have to be present to allow it to stick. There may be another scenario, but none come immediately to mind.

I have also spent a lot of time deliberately making squibs for testing purposes. Weighing them side by side with fully charged cases has shown me that the variance in the weight of the case can But not always does cause the charge weight to be hidden. It's just not a reliable method if you don't already have the weight of the individual components.

I've never seen or heard of a primer itself causing a squib assuming powder is present in the case. I'd highly recommend a collet puller to pull down the 900 some bullets you have left.
 
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I can’t take credit for this because I got it from another THR member :)

I did not believe it when I read it, but after I did it I was amazed. Shaking a loaded case in the funnel as it is held close to the ear does let you hear powder flopping back-and-forth in the case.

No powder equals no mini-maraca sound ;)
 
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LOAD, SQUIB: A cartridge or shell which produces projectile velocity and sound substantially lower than normal. May result in projectile and/or wads remaining in the bore.
FAIL-TO-FIRE: A failure of the firearm to discharge after the trigger has been pulled. It can be one of two types: 1.) a complete misfire, or 2.) a delayed fire.

One is the normal definition of a Squib and the other a definition of a Fail To Fire, which is the case? A squib round does go bang just not a normal bang and is generally a result of failing to charge the case so only the primer goes bang or a substandard powder charge. Fail to fire is a different animal with different causes where when the trigger is squeezed we hear the click of the firing pin going forward and striking the primer but nothing happens, the bullet doesn't leave the cartridge. The latter can have several causes with an incorrectly seated primer about at the top of the list followed by issues with the gun itself. Dirty or obstructed firing pin channel, weak spring and other possibles. So which definition would fit your problem?

Ron
 
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I did not believe it when I read it, but after I did it I was amazed. Shaking a loaded case in the funnel as it is held close to the ear does let you hear powder flopping back-and-forth in the case.
Back when I could hear better, I didn't need the funnel. But even if we hear powder, we don't know if it is the proper charge weight.

We need to OP to define what he called a squib to be sure of our advice.
 
Checked a 9mm case this morning. Full to the top was 13.3 gr of CFE-P.
10.2 gr fits and leaves a little space at the top of the case, charge would be compressed when loading a bullet.
Note: 10.2 is not a recommended load! It is a double charge. Just checking to see what it would look like.
 
yes, please define your idea of what 'squib' means.

I've had a 550 for years,and for many of those years never felt the need to check each case for powder, I do however watch the powder slide to make sure it activates,and has a full travel.
..Never a squib in all those years.
....IF a primer just goes 'click' not bang, I just hit it again, almost always solves that problem...I"ve learned to lean into the press handle when seating primers.
 
But even if we hear powder, we don't know if it is the proper charge weight.

Excellent point, Walkalong.

Up til now I had only considered it to be useful for the purpose of determining if a case had been charged or not.
Neat parlor trick, but unreliable as a safety precaution.
Thanks for the heads up.:(
 
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