Girlfriend/wife with warped views on self-defense?

[Deacon Blues]

I gotta tell you, if guns are a sore point now, they'll be a battleground when you're married (if that's your intent). This is the sort of thing you need to work out now before it's too late.

Now, I'll admit that I didn't know a lot of my lady's opinions on matters like this when I asked her to marry me; lucky for me, she was able to defy gender stereotypes, upbringing, and whatever else in the name of common sense. When I first brought up the issue of guns for self-defense, her first words were "I want a gun."

I can't really say if there is a gender link in all of this, except that I imagine most of what the men are reading is from forums like this one. A while back, someone actually did some research on how the two genders utilize the internet. IIRC, men favored forums over blogs, and women were just the opposite. So, I would think it likely that we men are forming our perspective on the female population's opinions in a vacuum of actual information (presuming that internet discussions are a major part of the process).

Of course, I believe that Western culture attempts to make women ignorant and closed-minded, and it might have a few success stories out there.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

You are hearing the argument from his side...

Ok, maybe that's true too, but to be so heavily one-sided on all those points? I guess my point is that I can fully sympathize with Dope. I have had conversations with women who had some "odd" viewpoints, and certainly some warped answers to my questions. When I say "warped" I justify it like this.... When in the conversation, IF we had a transcript and replaced all occurances of the word "gun" with "rock", and I read it back to most rational people, it would likely appear that one of us was not thinking straight.

For example...
me: If a predator had broken into your home and was at your child's bedroom door with a [gun/rock], would you want to have a [gun/rock] in order to defend your child?
her: No, I would never use a [gun/rock].

Maybe I am the one who is crazy (I will let you decide), but I regard that answer as warped thinking. Her answer is certainly is not a survival instinct.

 

[mike101]

You want to point out to her that the police are not legally obligated to protect her.

When I lived in Chicago, I called 911 to report a crime in progress, in the middle of the afternoon. No one answered the phone.

Remind her about Dr. Pettit's family in Connecticutt. The police arrived just in time to count the bodies, and call the fire department.

 

[HKUSP45C]

To be fair the police also apprehended the suspects. While that didn't save any lives or property it's actually, exactly, what they are charged with doing.

Cops aren't paid to STOP crime. They get a paycheck to SOLVE them and bring someone to court. Stop, no ... solve, yes.

When a police officer does actually stop a crime it's usually a set of near perfect circumstances, not design.

The above is in no way intended to disparage police and their contribution to society. They fill a needed position for the community.

 

[crankshop1000]

Just a thought here,but maybe she is a little leery of having a weapon in the house because of something you have done in the past or something that may occur in the future. She may be concerned that things on the homefront could get nasty. The only reason I mention it is that we had a similar incident. The argument over the breakup (she was leaving and moving on) resulted in a murder/suicide and everyone shaking their heads.Just giving a different view to consider.

 

[romma]

Some people I believe want the fairy-talle illusion of safety, to not be a fairy-tale...

Boy, lightning sure went wild in the doctor's house recently in New Hampshire(?), huh?

It was Connecticut.

 

[30 cal slob]

it's gender-driven to the extent that women tend to be socially conditioned to be weaker and submissive.

i think it really boils down to one's personality and world view, a good chunk of which is going to be linked to upbringing.

some people are less self-interested than others. some altruists will, in a vacuum, tend to view self-defense as inherently evil.

others are in denial or haven't clearly thought about the issue.

some people can't get over the emotional aspects of self defense and gun ownership (and all of the negative pre-conceived notions about them floating out there) and have little room for reasoning.

it's best not to force the issue, especially if you are the spouse. something so fundamental to ones core beliefs is not easily changed overnight, but the good news is that over time, perceptions can steadily evolve. sometimes, all it takes is a little bad news (Chesire, CT home invasion) that hits close to home.

one thing i've found very helpful: have your wife have a discussion WITH ANOTHER PRO-RKBA WOMAN, preferably an NRA-certified (or similar) instructor. women will listen to each other in a non-intimidating setting. i wish someone like pax could do a north american tour and speak with women. folks like her are a bit hard to come by in my neck of the woods.

 

[realtor]

Love, "live ins" and marriage should be predicated on one rule. If you force me to "choose" between you and my firearm,... there's the door, don't let it bump you in the butt on the way out.

Been married 38 years. That's what she would have said to me 38 years ago has I not already understood how she felt and said it first. Nice to have mutual "interests" and "convictions". P.S., don't mess with her, she'll drill you between the running lights at home or anywhere else if necessary and justified. We're obviously both older but certain skills remain.

 

[1911 guy]

Bail NOW!

You've just glimpsed what she will attempt to force on you for the rest of your life. Don't have a problem? That's what Russia said on the eve of the german invasion.

This isn't about men and women, this is about two people who disagree greatly about a very important issue in life. You believe you have the right to protect yourself, she believes she has the right to die mutilated or violated. The two are not reconcileable.

If I were a betting man, I'd lay even money that you and she differ on many other important issues if you took the time to deliberately bring them up. Find out now, before you commit your life to someone you find you don't know at all.

 

[Correia]

Just to illustrate what I was trying to get at earlier, I'm gonna pick on one thread in particular.

Are we trying to be PC here? How many posts do we read that start out with "my husband does not want me to have a gun for SD"?!?

Not as many, since THR is like 99% male and we insist on running off as many female members as possible by telling them that they're inherantly not as good as we are. Oh, we don't do it on purpose, but let's keep reading.

And also, as somebody that works in a gunstore and teaches CCW to about 100 people a month, I've heard about husbands not wanting wives to have guns a couple of times a month.

I disagree, but not entirely. It is both. I believe men are much more prepared, mentally, to confront an attack.

That is a matter of societal conditioning rather than anything based on chromosones or estrogen. Speaking as a guy who gets to be OpFor a whole lot, the average ANYBODY is not mentally prepared to confront an attack. I make pretty good money carving people up with a rubber knife in various role plays, and these are people that have already made the decision to carry a gun.

That DOES NOT mean that a woman who sees her child being threatened will not fight to the death.

Negative. It has nothing to do with sex. Nor does it have anything to do with wanting to protect a 3rd person. The idea of the "Momma Bear" is great and all, but I teach more single women than I do moms. Once again, these are the people that have made the decision to carry a gun.

It means that she does not think about it like a man, nor does she prepare for it in advance quite like a man.

Wrong again. You haven't met my wife.

You're playing with broad stereotypes. We're talking about individuals.

Women are not comfortable with the idea of fighting or defending one's life with deadly force (and I can't totally say that I blame them either).

Another false stereotype. Some of the most serious students I've ever seen have been female. Zero hesitation, only a moment of calculation, and then they drop the hammer.

And I've taught men who choke, and freeze, and then start to cry...

We're talking about individuals. You can't use a brush so incredibly broad that it paints half the world. It just don't work.

The action of self-defense is a very serious topic.

Which is exactly why I'm going through you post and ripping it apart, line by line. It is nothing personal.

We are talking about the taking of another's life, in order to save our's or another's life/lives.

Which is exactly why this is a serious topic, that needs to be addressed with reality, instead of old stereotypes. Frankly, this post has as many assumptions and wishful thoughts as the OP's girlfriend.

Couple that with a woman who has no experience with guns, outside of movies and media,

We have men on this board, who own guns, carry guns, and still think a .45 has more "knock down power". I have much better luck teaching reality to female students then men because they, on average, haven't been as imersed in action fantasy BS movies.

and you have someone who SEEMS like she does not want to defend herself. However, put her in a position of having a child who depends on her for safety and the viewpoint changes, to varying degrees.

Once again, wishful thinking and stereotypes. Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

Now the flip-side... Suggest going shooting, to a man who has no experience with guns, and you will possibly have a range partner.

I know a little tiny bit about this, as I've taught several hundred people to shoot, and the guys in my organization have taught thousands. One of my guys is the busiest hunter safety instructor in the state.

If you invite a woman, it is just like inviting a man. You make it fun. You start them with a .22. You emphasize safety and awareness.

Shocking, I know, but women do like to shoot too.

I did not grow up around guns. I met my first friend who carried only 2 and a half years ago. I asked "why do you carry?" and he answered. It took about a 10 minute conversation to convince me that, "yes, it is a good idea to be able to defend yourself".

Okay, good. That's awesome. I've had even shorter conversations with women. "You can carry a gun, legally?" "Yes." "Cool. How do I do that?"

I am single and I meet/date a lot of new girls often.

When I met my wife, she had only shot a .22 rifle, like once or twice growing up. Our first date was shooting pistols. None of your stereotypes above applied AT ALL. Ironically, just like the other 2+ billion females on Earth, she was an individual.

We got married.

I like to get a feel for where they stand on self-defense and guns, before I even remotely suggest that I might be someone who owns a gun.

If you're still talking about dating, I would also suggest seeing where they stand on religion, morality, personal finance, politics, humor, family, ethics, and any other thing that is important to you.

The fear of guns from women is shocking, as well as their concept of what is a suitable defense against an attacker.

Broad brush again. It has nothing at all to do with sex, and when we insist that it does, and that we're somehow superior because of our chromosones, we're lieing to ourselves. And then when we perpetuate these myths and stereotypes, we manage to offend and run off most of the women who post here, then we pat ourselves on the back with our self-fulfilling prophecy because hey, if women liked guns, why aren't more of them on THR?

I don't know about you guys, but I don't think I would hang out in a group where most of the people insisted that I was somehow inferior, and that my wiring in my brain is just wrong, but hey, you're okay, because you're different than all of the people just like you. You're one of the good ones.

I used to hear the same thing from my rascist relatives growing up. There was one black family in my small town. I would hear my relatives talk about all of the standard stereotypes, but they liked this one family, because they were some of the good ones.

This kind of thing is EXACTLY the same.

Guys, we're in a culture war here. The winner gets to pick if guns remain part of our society or not. It is a war of numbers. Do you honestly want to construct your arguments with the starting point that 50% of the population is too feeble to be on our side?

We're not talking about combat. We're not talking about physical strength. We're talking about fundamental basic, human self-defense.

Some of them can be saved from the "feelings of safety", but some of them are helpless without some serious therapy.

Yes, I am going to remain single for a long, long time.

Yes, yes you probably are.

 

[charon]

There is a practical 911 exercise you can use. If you live in a single family home there could/should be an accessible phone box outside the house. It can be opened with a screw driver. Inside you will find all of your house lines plugged in using standard RJ45 jacks.

Go out and get familiar with opening the box before hand. Then, when she's home, have her pick up the phone -- dial tone. Then say, wait a minute and go outside to the box. It should only take a minute to unplug the lines. Come back in the house and say: "Now, pick up the phone and see if you can dial 911..."

 

[Hobie]

Would it be all right with her if YOU beat her? I don't think so. What would she do then? Fight back? Why not fight back against an invader?

 

[IndianaBoy]

My girlfriend bought herself a glock 17, shoots USPSA with me every Thursday night, has her CCW and wants a G19 or G26 for a carry gun.

I am a lucky man to have her around.... and have dated antis in the past. Never ever ever again.


She has only a few months of handgun shooting experience (she has shot rifles before), but is doing a great job of learning, and is already a better shot than most people I see on the range. She almost beat me on a plate race a few weeks ago, a bobbled reload slowed her down a bit. I'm very proud of her and her pragmatic views on self defense. She'd shoot an attempted rapist in a heartbeat.

I was never able to convince my ex of the positives of firearm ownership. Her extremely liberal mother had brainwashed both daughters. They both now live in St. Louis, oblivious to the danger they are in... even though both of their cars have been broken into, and they sometimes hear gunshots at night.

 

[Houston Tom]

To avoid the sterotypeing concerns, the bottom line is your partner has a problem with you having a gun for HD cause she thinks your paranoid, so what. Go and get it tell her you want her to be comfortable using it and offer to teach her if she says no then fine, and if you never have to use it then the worse thing is she thinks your paranoid, God forbid you need it and not have it.

You would think that the Home in Vasion in CT would have changed her mind.

 

[damyankee]

My experience with women and firearms... (Information gained from last girlfriend and current).

Ex: Anti gun teacher. Would never go shooting with me and hated that I wanted to teach her how to shoot. Never really had to deal with any major SD issues, ever.

Current: Pro gun Hairdresser. Getting her own XD-9 soon! Has to deal with some "stalky" customers, feels SD could be a legitimate concern.

To me it seems if a threat could arise this changes the female outlook on weapons.

just my .02

 

[Big Calhoun]

I've always felt that every relationship is different, because people are different. My father has a very 'Alpha-Male' type relationship where his word is law. My grandfather has a more diplomatic approach which I share; decisions are not unilaterly made but differing opinions that are detrimental to the household can be vetoed. I have friends that bend to the will and whim of their significant other. So, I think this has to be taken into consideration in order to decide how to frame the issue and come to resolution.

At the same time, girlfriends can be replaced. IMO, you court other people to find your match. Faults or major differences in opinions should never be overlooked in hopes that they'll simply go away; usually they won't. With marriage, on the other hand, the expectation (IMO) is that you've already reached the point where you understand, agree, and respect each others stances on issues. With that, compromise can be reached within the framework established by that understanding.

With all of that said, first, if your right of self-defense and defense of family is something you take dearly, then you should hold firm on your beliefs. If this person is your girlfriend, then now would be the time to reach and understanding that would be the basis for future actions and decisions. If that understanding can't be reached, well, then perhaps that person is not the right one for you.

My wife is very naive and admits as much. She also understands how important family is to me and how important I take my role as provider and protector. We gained that understanding before we wed. Now, she still doesn't like guns, but she respects my role and my decisions in regards to them...unless there is a new purse out at the one of the boutiques in the Galleria. But seriously, we came to that understanding before we wed and despite her own personal feelings, she respects and abides by what we agreed upon. It's much easier this way...no sneaking guns into the house, I don't have to hide things or be sneaky about going to the range. And in actuality, she has come to feel safer when we're out and I'm carrying.

So stand firm, reach an understanding, and cut your losses if need be.

 

[JohnL2]

I am a lucky man to have her around.... and have dated antis in the past. Never ever ever again.

(Nodding head very enthusiastically)

 

[Eyesac]

Correia, I agree with things both of you have said, but accusing him of painting with a broad brush, but then lumping all humans (M/F) together as "individuals" in regards to self defense? That's not a broad brush? Men and women are different.

That is a matter of societal conditioning rather than anything based on chromosones or estrogen

I think many in the human development and medical community would disagree with you.

Quote:
It means that she does not think about it like a man, nor does she prepare for it in advance quite like a man.

Wrong again. You haven't met my wife.

Sighting one example and stating that he is wrong is again painting with a broad brush based on your wife.

We're talking about individuals. You can't use a brush so incredibly broad that it paints half the world. It just don't work.

He wasn't talking about individuals, you are. He's talking about the differences he observes in males and females in regards to SD. Not the exceptions to the rules he's observed. I'm sure he even has some examples of exceptions, but that's not the point he was trying to make.

Some people like to point out the differences, and sometimes incorrectly, and sometimes at the wrong time, but that doesn't mean the differences don't exist. To try to "urge" a woman towards SD is going to be different than "urging" a man, women have different SD needs than men, etc, etc... Like I said, I agree with you that all persons must be delt with on an idividual basis (or else we could just send out flyers to every home in the US and everyone would think the same way we did), but he was just pointing out that it might be tough to get some women to be SD minded, when most men even from childhood dream of being able to defend themselves.

It's a bit off topic from the original post yet here we are. Someone else started it, but I'm sure you'll end it.

 

[NeoSpud]

I think many in the human development and medical community would disagree with you.

example?

 

[Correia]

How is pointing out that every single individual human being is wired differently painting with a broad brush? I paint with a razor blade.

I'm not just talking about my wife. I teach people to shoot. I do that a lot. No two of them are alike. Period.

He wasn't talking about individuals, you are.

Damn skippy I was. He was trying to divide the human race into black and white based on broad stereotypes. That don't work.

Every single person you intereact with is different and has to be treated differently.

I think many in the human development and medical community would disagree with you.

Bring them on. You find me some actual PhDs that tell me half the population is wired to be irrational, illogical, emotional, and unable to effectively defend themselves...

The post I ripped apart assumes that half of the population is the same. And then focuses on how they're inherantly irrational, feeble, and not wired to defend themselves unless they have babies...

See the disconnect yet?

I ripped that post apart because it was filled with stereotypes and things that were wrong. They're the same kind of mistakes that hurt the firearms community. THR doesn't exist to drive wedges between different groups. We exist to promote our way of life.

Someone else started it, but I'm sure you'll end it.

Puh-leeze, because you know, those big mean moderators just can't wait to pick fights and then close the thread.

Reading your post, I don't think you disagree with me. But rather you just think that the moderator is being mean. Okay, fine. I agree with that. I am mean. Original point still stands.

 

[Headless]

My girlfriend's parents - BOTH OF THEM, are extremely anti-self defense. To add to Correia's remarks, I'd like to say that the father is the one in this case who perpetuates the lack of self defensive thinking at their house. They don't even lock their doors. EVER. I've never gotten into a serious debate with him, but his statement (i overheard) was that guns are "bad" because all they are used for is KILLING PEOPLE. Ignoring of course the fact that sometimes people need to be killed and the fact that many guns are not intended for defensive purposes/killing people at all. Target .22 pistol anybody?

I'm extremely proud of my girlfriend because she grew up in that household and still managed to break out of the mold and think for herself. She had only fired a gun once before when we started dating, but she had absolutely no problem with using a firearm or any other weapon she could find to defend herself from someone meaning her or hers harm. It is not gender based, it is INDIVIDUALLY based. Her parents come from different countries (her mother is American and her father is Iranian) and they share the same viewpoint on being a victim. Male/Female alike, from totally COMPLETELY different cultures.

Her brother on the other hand was asking me such wonderful questions as 'why would you ever need to carry a gun?' and delivering gems like 'i wouldn't own a gun because someone would take it from me and use it against me', etc. Ignoring the fact that someone intent on doing you harm will probably already be armed... Ruh roh, the male sibling is more anti than the female - someone call the stereotype police quickly and make them toe the line!

 

[Dope]

Thought I'd post an update for you guys. I'd love to respond to everyone's post individually but it would take me all day. I'll try to capture what I can though.

First off I'd like to thank everyone for their replies, even if it was just some male/female viewpoint bickering I read them all day yesterday and thought about it a bunch. We had a long discussion about the whole thing again last night. While you can't change how someone feels easily, you can at least educate them on your viewpoint right? That works both ways of course, giving her a chance to explain her viewpoint after we both had time to think about it.

Long story short: I'm not worried one bit. She:

1) Has no problem with me owning or using firearms in SD
2) Has no problem with me carrying a firearm
3) Has no problem with me continuing to own/carry/use firearms if/when we have kids
4) Now understands my viewpoint.

The whole thing basically revolves around my perception of "safety" and hers. She thinks she's safe enough as-is, that the chance of something happening to her/us is extremely low. She is right of course, but where we differ is our viewpoint on preparing for this low-chance encounter (home invasion or similar incident). She thinks the risk is low enough that it's not worth worrying about, and I think it's worth preparing for. *shrug* I can see her stance of course. Sure, you could probably wear a insulated full metal bodysuit to protect against lightning strikes but is it really worth it? You have to draw that line somewhere and she just draws it sooner than I do. I think all of us on this board are very safety conscious and to some it would be considered in the realm of paranoia. Frankly there are many on this board who take it many steps further than I do. Bug out bags, supplies for months, generators, etc.. I don't think there's anything wrong with that but *I* don't go that far because I don't think it's worth worrying about it. There are people reading this right now thinking that I'm unprepared because I don't keep any sort of food stockpiles. See what I'm saying? It's all about perspective. I'm sure if something were ever to happen, like someone breaking in, her perspective would change REALLY quickly.

Believe me, we aren't going to break up and from our discussion - this isn't going to be any sort of problem. She puts up with - and even supports - my various hobbies which include modifying cars (and racing them), computers, home theatre, etc etc.. This will be no different. We have been very close for 9 years and have been dating for over 2 of them and I'm sure we'll be married in a year or two.

Thank you for all of your thoughts, opinions, and humorous banter. I apologize for starting a male/female war but I think my statements were pretty innocuous. I never tried to imply that one gender is better than the other, simply that we tend to think differently. I don't think you can argue with that - but I'm sure people will

Dope

 

[hso]

Dope,

Gosh, where to begin?

I started thinking about all of the prominent anti-gunners out there. I couldn't think of 1 man - they are all women. I'm sure there are plenty of anti-gun men out there but it seems like it leans very heavily towards women.

I don't know where you get this idea. Spending any time looking at the NRA/ILA or reading THR would correct that error. Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, Rudy Guliani, John Kerry, Michael Bloomberg, Tom Diaz, and on and on. The majority of active gun-prohibitionists are men. Thinking that women are the only "prominent" antis is weird.

Women in general being anti?

I imagine that you don't have a lot of opportunity to discuss these sorts of issues with many other people. While women are propagandized heavily to meet gender sterotypes you'll find as many men who don't see the need for firearms and who don't see the need for equipping their homes to slow down home invaders. Check with male coworkers and you'll be surprised how many don't have a gun or who think the idea of preparing for a home invasion is a little nuts. It is the natural thought process for anyone to ignore the things they're unfamiliar with. You might think a person who lived through the Great Depression a little odd for hoarding and saving and keeping assets outside a bank or stocks while they may think that you to be extremely logical/rational for a young man, not to mention very intelligent, but that you are foolish for not recognizing the risk you are taking by not being prepared for this. What about water on hand or stored food in the event of a power outage? Fuel? Do you have a generator? What do you do if the power drops out for days this winter? Someone who saw the aftermath of Katrina and the ice/snow storms and deep cold dropping the power grid in the NE would consider you to be irrational for ignoring that threat. And depending where you live that would be a much greater threat, and easier to prepare for, than a home invasion.

Your personal sample that your opinion is based on is very different from mine. My mother and sister were both proficient with a handgun and had no problem with the idea of defending themselves or the house. My wife's better prepared than they were in both "hardware" and "software".

I think you need to look at your post and ask yourself if there isn't a tone of condescension towards your GF and women in general running through it. If that attitude leaked out during your conversation with your GF you can't honestly believe that a logical/rational/intelligent person wouldn't hear it and turn you off?

The "myths" you think your GF hold are held by men and women all over this country.

So what should you do? Tell her that you may have not handled your conversation very well and ask her to look over http://www.corneredcat.com, http://www.womenandguns.com/, http://www.paxtonquigley.com/ and http://www.2asisters.org/.

 

[Dope]

Ahh yes I forgot to mention that point. For some reason, at the time of my original post I really couldn't think of any prominent men who are antis. I was thinking...Hillary, Rosie, Feinstein, Brady, etc.. Obviously I was very mistaken. This was a false assertion on my part but it is also one of the questions I was posing - IS it a gender issue regarding SD? That has been answered with a fairly resounding NO. I think my own personal experiences have molded my thought process on that one. I work in IT and obviously 99% of my coworkers are male. I have had the luxury of working with quite a few ex-servicemen and obviously all of these men were avid gun enthusiasts. Whereas most women I meet/deal with are antis (I live in a very anti state). I just have an unbalanced collection of associates if that makes any sense.

As far as my possible condescension (sp?) towards women, well I'm guilty of that one too. I am a self-professed misogynist and quite honestly I can't stand 95% of the women I meet. Luckily I found a gem of a woman who is a self-professed tomboy and who hates most women too Hell, I met her playing a video game online (an FPS at that). What does that tell you? Once in a while she will turn girly on me and surprise me though

Dope

 

[hso]

Dope,

Careful of the hyperbole. I hope you're just a sexist about women and not a real misogynist. With experience and the tiniest bit of an open mind you can learn the fallacy of the one, but the other is a pathological condition. There are too many anti-2A men and too many pro-gun women for judging all women because of the actions of a part of the group being rational. I would think that a strong intelligent woman won't put up with that very long if it is deep seated instead of born of ignorance.

Consider this, while you're busy protecting her who's going to be protecting you? She is. You might want to keep that in mind and ask if she's thought of that?