30 cal slob
Member
interesting reading.
clinical hoplophobia discussed here:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/ragingagain.PDF
clinical hoplophobia discussed here:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/ragingagain.PDF
Girlfriend/wife with warped views on self-defense?
- Thread starter Dope
- Start date
- Status
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Actually there is still, for the moment, no such thing.
The book Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is the "official" book of recognized mental problems and there's nothing like that in there.
So it's not "clinical", just some shrinks opinions.
Most medical people are anti so I doubt they would put hoplophobia in the book since that would make most of them mentally ill
Wonderful analysis of my rebuttal.
Shooter, look, I like you. I enjoy your posts, and I'll try to be nice about this.
Go back, try to be as neutral as possible, and reread your post.
You know what you meant. Now read what you said, and look what it conveyed to all of us. Point by point, women mentally aren't wired to defend themselves.
Honestly, here's a peak behind the curtain. Over the years I've been moderating this board, we have had dozens of female members leave out of annoyance. They join. They post for awhile. They run across posts exactly like yours. They defend themselves. But then they have to do it over and over and over. Since self defense is the reason most of them join, eventually they say, screw it, I'm done being one of the Good Ones amongst the feeble.
Since this is supposed to be fun, why stick around, and have to have the same argument, every day?
They usually shoot the mods an e-mail when they give up. Over five years, we've accumulated a pretty good stack of these.
Now some stick around longer. They keep arguing. Eventually, because they're so outnumbered, they start to take on that lone crank-in-the-wilderness reputation. Since it is usually 80 guys, and 1 of them in a thread, and most of the 80 guys don't see a problem in that thread, then that 1 must be "hyper sensitive", therefore you can just dismiss whatever she's saying.
So, explain to me how your post helps THR's overall mission? I'm being honest here. Go back and read your post. You took several more posts to explain your intent, but reading your post as a bystander, it comes of as a misogynistic rant about how women suck.
Now here's the thing. You might be talking about average, or most, or however you see it. But change what you just wrote to the average black, or most Jews, and see how that comes across...
Kind of offensive, ain't it?
That stuff isn't true when the "average" gun owner is a beer-swilling, redneck, fat, bubba, with a poached deer carcass strapped across the Confederate flag hood of his rusty truck, and Copenhagen juice running down his unshaven, slack jaw.
When your anti-gun acquantinces say something about that, and assume all gun owners are Bubba, and you stand up and say, hey, no we're not. They can look at you in perfect condescension and say "Oh, not you. You're one of the Good Ones."
And isn't that annoying?
So put yourself in our female members shoes. You're not getting that generalization from your enemy. You're getting it from the people that are supposed to be your friends. Why would you stick around on a board like that?
Shooter, look, I like you. I enjoy your posts, and I'll try to be nice about this.
Go back, try to be as neutral as possible, and reread your post.
You know what you meant. Now read what you said, and look what it conveyed to all of us. Point by point, women mentally aren't wired to defend themselves.
Honestly, here's a peak behind the curtain. Over the years I've been moderating this board, we have had dozens of female members leave out of annoyance. They join. They post for awhile. They run across posts exactly like yours. They defend themselves. But then they have to do it over and over and over. Since self defense is the reason most of them join, eventually they say, screw it, I'm done being one of the Good Ones amongst the feeble.
Since this is supposed to be fun, why stick around, and have to have the same argument, every day?
They usually shoot the mods an e-mail when they give up. Over five years, we've accumulated a pretty good stack of these.
Now some stick around longer. They keep arguing. Eventually, because they're so outnumbered, they start to take on that lone crank-in-the-wilderness reputation. Since it is usually 80 guys, and 1 of them in a thread, and most of the 80 guys don't see a problem in that thread, then that 1 must be "hyper sensitive", therefore you can just dismiss whatever she's saying.
So, explain to me how your post helps THR's overall mission? I'm being honest here. Go back and read your post. You took several more posts to explain your intent, but reading your post as a bystander, it comes of as a misogynistic rant about how women suck.
Now here's the thing. You might be talking about average, or most, or however you see it. But change what you just wrote to the average black, or most Jews, and see how that comes across...
Kind of offensive, ain't it?
That stuff isn't true when the "average" gun owner is a beer-swilling, redneck, fat, bubba, with a poached deer carcass strapped across the Confederate flag hood of his rusty truck, and Copenhagen juice running down his unshaven, slack jaw.
When your anti-gun acquantinces say something about that, and assume all gun owners are Bubba, and you stand up and say, hey, no we're not. They can look at you in perfect condescension and say "Oh, not you. You're one of the Good Ones."
And isn't that annoying?
So put yourself in our female members shoes. You're not getting that generalization from your enemy. You're getting it from the people that are supposed to be your friends. Why would you stick around on a board like that?
I live with a very smart, rational, beautiful woman.
Irrational thought is based on emotion. Humans employ logic or emotion to their thought processes. That is why intelligent people will sometimes say ridiculous things. "Stupid" ideas are the result of emotion, not logic ...
Irrational thought is based on emotion. Humans employ logic or emotion to their thought processes. That is why intelligent people will sometimes say ridiculous things. "Stupid" ideas are the result of emotion, not logic ...
BlackBearME
Member
Ok, in response to TexasRifleman, I am a Female who knows her way around a gun and am very capable of taking care of myself. And guess what my Father had absolutely nothing to do with it! -BlackBear ME's Fiancee
Havegunjoe
Member
My wife understands the need for me to carry. She won't but that is a result of the way she was brought up but has no problem with me carrying all the time, even at home. As to your questions:
1 - Statistics show that thieves can enter a home and steal what they want in about 2-4 minutes. Locked doors and windows won't stop them.
2 - It should be fairly easy to find examples of LE arriving late as that is almost always the case. Find these and show them to her.
3 - This is a common myth we hear from anti-gun folks like the Brady Bunch. To this I say, "prove it". If this happened so much why isn't it in the media daily? Because it doesn't happen, that is why. Yet guns are used 2+ million times a year in self-defense.
4 - Do a demonstration for her. Have her stand in one room while you come blasting through the front door as if you were a home invader. Rush her as she goes for her cell phone and wrestle her to the ground. Don't get too violent but demonstrate how quickly she can be overpowered.
5 - That is about all you can do if you are overpowered. I would show her examples of victims that complied and did not fight with the thug and were murdered none-the-less.
6 - Not for me it isn't. Why do you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers? After all according to her logic having your house burn down is "an acceptable outcome due to some sort of fate".
As to your "related side note", some of the biggest anti-gun folks in this country are men. Ted Kennedy, Chucky Schumer just to name two prominent ones. Women are hardwired to be more sensitive so killing someone, even in self-defense is hard for them to swallow. They don't distinguish using a gun for crime and using a gun for defense. It tends to be the same to them.
I just came accross this video of the Police responding to a burglary in progress and taking two hours to get there. If your life is on the line does she really want to wait on the police?
http://www.wgal.com/video/14217419/index.html
1 - Statistics show that thieves can enter a home and steal what they want in about 2-4 minutes. Locked doors and windows won't stop them.
2 - It should be fairly easy to find examples of LE arriving late as that is almost always the case. Find these and show them to her.
3 - This is a common myth we hear from anti-gun folks like the Brady Bunch. To this I say, "prove it". If this happened so much why isn't it in the media daily? Because it doesn't happen, that is why. Yet guns are used 2+ million times a year in self-defense.
4 - Do a demonstration for her. Have her stand in one room while you come blasting through the front door as if you were a home invader. Rush her as she goes for her cell phone and wrestle her to the ground. Don't get too violent but demonstrate how quickly she can be overpowered.
5 - That is about all you can do if you are overpowered. I would show her examples of victims that complied and did not fight with the thug and were murdered none-the-less.
6 - Not for me it isn't. Why do you have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers? After all according to her logic having your house burn down is "an acceptable outcome due to some sort of fate".
As to your "related side note", some of the biggest anti-gun folks in this country are men. Ted Kennedy, Chucky Schumer just to name two prominent ones. Women are hardwired to be more sensitive so killing someone, even in self-defense is hard for them to swallow. They don't distinguish using a gun for crime and using a gun for defense. It tends to be the same to them.
I just came accross this video of the Police responding to a burglary in progress and taking two hours to get there. If your life is on the line does she really want to wait on the police?
http://www.wgal.com/video/14217419/index.html
Deacon Blues
Member
Well said. I've seen this sort of thing all my life. There are many racists out there who don't know that they're racists, and that is one of the ways it manifests itself. "Present company excepted" isn't particularly comforting to anyone. I'm sure someone will pull that one on me someday, since so many people think I look Hispanic.Correia said:
I'm willing to listen to what a woman has to say before lumping her into a stereotype.
Please don't tell me? Ok, I just told you that I'm not and you're still freaking out (I think you just won the "most pretension in 2007 award").
Ok, because I'm not talking about your Harvard study: I'm not talking about anything?
You'll be waiting a long time.
RoadkingLarry
Member
Hardwired? maybe not, don't think so, social conditioning? youdambethca!
littlegator
Member
Those 40 mm handguns...now there's a man stopper.
XavierBreath
Member
Getting back to the original post.............
Dope,
You are drawing an incorrect conclusion in your consideration of this problem. The belief that your girlfriend's concerns and feelings are present because she is female is erroneous. These feelingss are not inherently feminine, nor related to her chromosonal structure.
All to often we, as men, fail to see past gender when a woman is reluctant to take up arms to defend herself. When rational arguments fail to convince, we try to arrive at a reason, and fall back on that which is obvious to us. Two people hold different opinions on point A, and they are inherently different in manner B, so manner B must be the cause of the difference of opinion in point A. That is an illogical conclusion. It is sexist, and just as abhorrent as any of the other illogical and incorrect conclusions arrived at in the same manner. This includes sexism, racism, and a host of other "isms".
The ultimate finale of this type of illogical conclusion is stereotyping, and in the end, anger and resentment from the person who was so stereotyped. At that point, the stereotyped person has a choice, endure their own anger and resentment, or remove themselves from the source of it. It is not surprising that so many who hold these incorrect stereotypical views of women would also have troubled relationships with women. Nobody likes to be stereotyped. You would not endure dating a woman who viewed you as a knuckledragging Neanderthal bent on destruction and mayhem simply because you owned a shotgun. Do not view her as weak, indecisive and unwilling to defend herself simply because she is a woman. Many people, including men fit that description. We all draw our opinions and world views from our personal experiences tempered by cultural influences. Your girlfriend is no different, and her opinion is just as valid to her as yours is to you.
So, the woman in your life has reluctant feelings towards self defense and firearms..........Introduce her to the world of guns, self defense and individual liberty and self reliance one step at a time, the same as you would do for anyone. Do more listening than talking. Do not discount her reluctance, rather listen to it. Find the true rationale. Better yet, see if you can get her into one of Kay Miculek and Deb Fern's Ladie's Camps. If you cannot do that, see if there is a comparable course in your area. Direct her to it and get out of her way.
It is perhaps true that women are more reluctant towards firearms than men. This reluctance though is not caused by fear, less prediliction towards self defense, or from any hormones in their cellular structure. The reluctance is often the result of men who do not understand the true problem. Nobody likes to dive in to learn a new skill while being the acute focus of others proficient in the skill, who believe they are unable to succeed. The learning experiences between people are different. Some people grow up understanding that effective self defense is a necessity. It is my belief that this relevation occurs in the elementary schoolyard most of the time, or it can happen after a significant life changing event as it did for Texas Representative Suzanna Hupp.
Your girlfriend may or may not develop an understanding of the need for effective self defense in the future. One thing is almost certain though, if you continue to arrive at incorrect conclusions regardling the woman in your life, basing those conclusions on her gender, your relationship will suffer.
littlegator, thanks for pointing out my error. That kinda thing is embarrassing! Blog changed!
Dope,
You are drawing an incorrect conclusion in your consideration of this problem. The belief that your girlfriend's concerns and feelings are present because she is female is erroneous. These feelingss are not inherently feminine, nor related to her chromosonal structure.
All to often we, as men, fail to see past gender when a woman is reluctant to take up arms to defend herself. When rational arguments fail to convince, we try to arrive at a reason, and fall back on that which is obvious to us. Two people hold different opinions on point A, and they are inherently different in manner B, so manner B must be the cause of the difference of opinion in point A. That is an illogical conclusion. It is sexist, and just as abhorrent as any of the other illogical and incorrect conclusions arrived at in the same manner. This includes sexism, racism, and a host of other "isms".
The ultimate finale of this type of illogical conclusion is stereotyping, and in the end, anger and resentment from the person who was so stereotyped. At that point, the stereotyped person has a choice, endure their own anger and resentment, or remove themselves from the source of it. It is not surprising that so many who hold these incorrect stereotypical views of women would also have troubled relationships with women. Nobody likes to be stereotyped. You would not endure dating a woman who viewed you as a knuckledragging Neanderthal bent on destruction and mayhem simply because you owned a shotgun. Do not view her as weak, indecisive and unwilling to defend herself simply because she is a woman. Many people, including men fit that description. We all draw our opinions and world views from our personal experiences tempered by cultural influences. Your girlfriend is no different, and her opinion is just as valid to her as yours is to you.
So, the woman in your life has reluctant feelings towards self defense and firearms..........Introduce her to the world of guns, self defense and individual liberty and self reliance one step at a time, the same as you would do for anyone. Do more listening than talking. Do not discount her reluctance, rather listen to it. Find the true rationale. Better yet, see if you can get her into one of Kay Miculek and Deb Fern's Ladie's Camps. If you cannot do that, see if there is a comparable course in your area. Direct her to it and get out of her way.
It is perhaps true that women are more reluctant towards firearms than men. This reluctance though is not caused by fear, less prediliction towards self defense, or from any hormones in their cellular structure. The reluctance is often the result of men who do not understand the true problem. Nobody likes to dive in to learn a new skill while being the acute focus of others proficient in the skill, who believe they are unable to succeed. The learning experiences between people are different. Some people grow up understanding that effective self defense is a necessity. It is my belief that this relevation occurs in the elementary schoolyard most of the time, or it can happen after a significant life changing event as it did for Texas Representative Suzanna Hupp.
Your girlfriend may or may not develop an understanding of the need for effective self defense in the future. One thing is almost certain though, if you continue to arrive at incorrect conclusions regardling the woman in your life, basing those conclusions on her gender, your relationship will suffer.
littlegator, thanks for pointing out my error. That kinda thing is embarrassing! Blog changed!
30 cal slob
Member
Correia said:
Well, I'm a Red Man chaw guy myself ...
ShooterMcGavin
Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2007
- Messages
- 629
Here is exactly where my first post came from...
1. This question from the OP:
2. This statement from Doc2005:
The essence of my response was this, towards the top of my post:
I meant what I said - that I disagree with the idea that women's (or men's) inclination towards guns/SD is not at all related to gender. I disagree that it is based 100% on education. I never said that it was based entirely, or even largely on gender - I would disagree with that statement as well. I think gender does enter into a person's natural inclination towards guns, or probably most important decisions. I would define "natural inclination" as that of a person who has no knowledge, training, education, or exposure to the topic in question.
-Did you read my post to mean that women, after gaining some firearms education, are less inclined or less able to become interested in guns/SD???? Or, the extreme case, that women are less able to defend themselves?!?!
That seems, to me, to be a very contorted understanding of what I wrote.
The statement that education plays a role had already been discussed. Therefore, I did not reiterate that point. I moved on with the other portion, how one's sex might naturally (i.e. without education) cause an affinity for guns/SD.
I am trying to use what little knowledge I have, in order to communicate with others and determine why some people (and it is women, in this thread) seem to have a natural dislike of guns/SD. That is what the OP asked.
I can go through my post and give my honest opinion of each point, but that would make this response very long. From the standpoint that I have heard in your posts (i.e. women are "irrational, illogical, emotional, and unable to effectively defend themselves"), YES, I can see that being quite offensive. I still don't think that MOST of my post insinuated that at all....
In the last paragraph, I seemed to be making some general statements. I was referring to the women that I have dated when I said:
XavierBreath, (*edit: regarding post #98) are you posting that to ascert that women are very capable of defending themselves, and was it directed towards me? I believe we are in agreement. I have never made an argument to the contrary.
1. This question from the OP:
and
2. This statement from Doc2005:
The essence of my response was this, towards the top of my post:
I do know exactly what I meant. NO!!! I NEVER meant that women mentally aren't wired to defend themselves! ...and "all of" you did not take quite the extreme implication of the words I wrote (Eyesac would be an example).
I meant what I said - that I disagree with the idea that women's (or men's) inclination towards guns/SD is not at all related to gender. I disagree that it is based 100% on education. I never said that it was based entirely, or even largely on gender - I would disagree with that statement as well. I think gender does enter into a person's natural inclination towards guns, or probably most important decisions. I would define "natural inclination" as that of a person who has no knowledge, training, education, or exposure to the topic in question.
-Did you read my post to mean that women, after gaining some firearms education, are less inclined or less able to become interested in guns/SD???? Or, the extreme case, that women are less able to defend themselves?!?!
That seems, to me, to be a very contorted understanding of what I wrote.
The statement that education plays a role had already been discussed. Therefore, I did not reiterate that point. I moved on with the other portion, how one's sex might naturally (i.e. without education) cause an affinity for guns/SD.
I refuted that women, who possibly have a different natural tendency towards guns/SD, base their interest upon ONLY education. Perhaps there is a gender portion that has influence. Perhaps, even, gender has some effect on the fact that 94% (or whatever, I don't know the exact number) of violent offenders in our prison system are men. Now, did I just say that men were worse (or better) than women? NO!
I am trying to use what little knowledge I have, in order to communicate with others and determine why some people (and it is women, in this thread) seem to have a natural dislike of guns/SD. That is what the OP asked.
If I did that, it would (HOPEFULLY) raise questions, such as "how can you justify one's different interest in guns/SD based on race/religion or something else that is non-biological?". That conversation is very different, because we would only be talking about someone's background, not something genetic. If my argument could justify a reason why some people are naturally different (such as men having more testosterone, for this topic), then I do not think it would be offensive (my opinion of a reasonable person). I can't make the argument you are supposing, but I'm trying to use your example. However, some people are offended just because they are different. Some people get offended because other people do not like their favorite type of gun!
I can go through my post and give my honest opinion of each point, but that would make this response very long. From the standpoint that I have heard in your posts (i.e. women are "irrational, illogical, emotional, and unable to effectively defend themselves"), YES, I can see that being quite offensive. I still don't think that MOST of my post insinuated that at all....
In the last paragraph, I seemed to be making some general statements. I was referring to the women that I have dated when I said:
That was vague and sounds very generalized, as if I am talking about "all" women when I was in fact talking about some of the women I have dated. It was wrong for me to be unclear in that communication, and I can see how that might be offensive towards a woman. I apologize for that. I am certainly willing to edit that post by adding clarification (I won't delete from the post). *edit: Please send me a PM if you would like that done.
XavierBreath, (*edit: regarding post #98) are you posting that to ascert that women are very capable of defending themselves, and was it directed towards me? I believe we are in agreement. I have never made an argument to the contrary.
XavierBreath: just a quick note that I failed to mention earlier. In our discussion, part of her attempt to explain her viewpoint to me involved the male/female comparison. She explained that women generally just don't think that way (regarding SD).
I'm not saying that she was right or wrong. But it did really get me thinking about the whole male/female perspective on guns and SD. That was a large part of my reasons for posting the questions that I did.
As far as the whole male/female discussion goes:
Personally I believe that males will be much more inclined to be "into" firearms (including the SD aspect of firearms). Why? Is it in their genes? Their upbringing? The culture that we live in? I don't know (that's for everyone else in this thread to discuss). But I think the outcome is the same nonetheless. I think this is what my girlfriend was trying to tell me.
I relate it to another male-dominated hobby that I participate in. Cars. Are there female car enthusiasts? Of course. Are there even some very famous, very successful female drivers in various racing events? Of course. That doesn't change the fact that car enthusiasts are 99% male (at least!). Car forums, car shows, drag races, road races, on and on are 99% male. I've been to many of these events. I am even willing to bet that most of the women that are in the "scene" are there because of their boyfriend/husband/family.
Same goes for gun shows, the range, shooting competitions, gun shops, etc.. It is going to be the VAST majority that are male.
I respect everyone's different opinions on the subject, including the whole "why?" discussion, but I think it's borderline silly for anyone to even try to infer that the issue of firearms and their use in SD is a 50/50 split between men and women (or even close).
My $.02, don't spend it all at once.
Dope
I'm not saying that she was right or wrong. But it did really get me thinking about the whole male/female perspective on guns and SD. That was a large part of my reasons for posting the questions that I did.
As far as the whole male/female discussion goes:
Personally I believe that males will be much more inclined to be "into" firearms (including the SD aspect of firearms). Why? Is it in their genes? Their upbringing? The culture that we live in? I don't know (that's for everyone else in this thread to discuss
). But I think the outcome is the same nonetheless. I think this is what my girlfriend was trying to tell me.I relate it to another male-dominated hobby that I participate in. Cars. Are there female car enthusiasts? Of course. Are there even some very famous, very successful female drivers in various racing events? Of course. That doesn't change the fact that car enthusiasts are 99% male (at least!). Car forums, car shows, drag races, road races, on and on are 99% male. I've been to many of these events. I am even willing to bet that most of the women that are in the "scene" are there because of their boyfriend/husband/family.
Same goes for gun shows, the range, shooting competitions, gun shops, etc.. It is going to be the VAST majority that are male.
I respect everyone's different opinions on the subject, including the whole "why?" discussion, but I think it's borderline silly for anyone to even try to infer that the issue of firearms and their use in SD is a 50/50 split between men and women (or even close).
My $.02, don't spend it all at once.
Dope
mindwip
Member
Every girl or guy i have ever hung out with believes in self defense and guns. I have taken about 3 woman and 5 guys shooting for their first time ever. They all enjoyed it. They all wanted to buy a gun for their selves when they were old enough/had enough money and use it for self defense and shooting practice. In fact i know 2 girls that have gun"s" of there own but only 1 guy who has "a" gun. And i know more guys then girls.
Every girl i know is more then happy to shoot some one who is harming her or her family.
The issue of self defense based on solely the difference of the sexes is not a valid one. Self defense and the idea surrounding it is more cultural based. The idea of freedom and laws and taboos is set by the culture the person lives in. This has way more to do with how men or woman think in terms of what is good or bad. Then them being a male or female has nothing to do with weather they are born to like defense. It may be that a culture may say woman should not defend them selves and only men should, but living in USA there are not those messages for the mass media. Many pop books, movie, plays and even tv and talk shows have woman being the center of the story in which they defend them selves and kill others. As it stands there is not a huge taboo on woman anymore about what roles there good for.
Woman and men get to pick which set of taboos they want to follow in the USA, the local culture does help to define what one may think. But to only base it off ones sex would not be incorrect.
Every girl i know is more then happy to shoot some one who is harming her or her family.
The issue of self defense based on solely the difference of the sexes is not a valid one. Self defense and the idea surrounding it is more cultural based. The idea of freedom and laws and taboos is set by the culture the person lives in. This has way more to do with how men or woman think in terms of what is good or bad. Then them being a male or female has nothing to do with weather they are born to like defense. It may be that a culture may say woman should not defend them selves and only men should, but living in USA there are not those messages for the mass media. Many pop books, movie, plays and even tv and talk shows have woman being the center of the story in which they defend them selves and kill others. As it stands there is not a huge taboo on woman anymore about what roles there good for.
Woman and men get to pick which set of taboos they want to follow in the USA, the local culture does help to define what one may think. But to only base it off ones sex would not be incorrect.
XavierBreath
Member
Dope, et al:
On reflection, I believe that what I am trying to get at is this is not a male/female issue. Rather, it is an issue between those who have had to defend themselves against unwarranted aggression and those who have not. When a person has to defend themselves, they quickly appreciate the need for quick, effective self defense.
In American society, in fact, in most societies, boys physically fight as children. Often they get into schoolyard fistfights over inconsequential things. Girls are far less likely to experience unwarranted aggression as children. As a result, boys, when they approach manhood in general have a greater appreciation for possessing the ability to defend oneself. Many girls have not had fistfights in the schoolyard, they have not bloodied each other's nose and fought slinging fists when they could hardly see through bleary beaten eyes. They have not felt what it is like to have been beaten unmercifully. Thus, they have a lesser appreciation of what can happen when the teacher (or police officer) is not around, and the response time from the playground monitor (or 911) is slow.
On the other hand, some girls have experienced the need for effective self defense, and some boys have not. More often, through events in their lives and their families, women seem to more often develop an appreciation for self defense once grown. I believe the issue is a perception of defensive needs to survive in society, not a hormonal or chromosomal link. The perception of the need for self defense, once in place, is no less strong in women, nor is their ability to govern effective self defense with a firearm any less.
I hope that makes sense.
ShooterMcGavin,
Post #98 was not directed at you, but merely posted to show a recent example.
On reflection, I believe that what I am trying to get at is this is not a male/female issue. Rather, it is an issue between those who have had to defend themselves against unwarranted aggression and those who have not. When a person has to defend themselves, they quickly appreciate the need for quick, effective self defense.
In American society, in fact, in most societies, boys physically fight as children. Often they get into schoolyard fistfights over inconsequential things. Girls are far less likely to experience unwarranted aggression as children. As a result, boys, when they approach manhood in general have a greater appreciation for possessing the ability to defend oneself. Many girls have not had fistfights in the schoolyard, they have not bloodied each other's nose and fought slinging fists when they could hardly see through bleary beaten eyes. They have not felt what it is like to have been beaten unmercifully. Thus, they have a lesser appreciation of what can happen when the teacher (or police officer) is not around, and the response time from the playground monitor (or 911) is slow.
On the other hand, some girls have experienced the need for effective self defense, and some boys have not. More often, through events in their lives and their families, women seem to more often develop an appreciation for self defense once grown. I believe the issue is a perception of defensive needs to survive in society, not a hormonal or chromosomal link. The perception of the need for self defense, once in place, is no less strong in women, nor is their ability to govern effective self defense with a firearm any less.
I hope that makes sense.
ShooterMcGavin,
Post #98 was not directed at you, but merely posted to show a recent example.
theleveloftime
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2006
- Messages
- 66
Occum's Razor
I will stick by my advice. I selected a woman who understands that our firearms are the first and last line of defense for us and our home. Occum's Razor is the best weapon of all. It is really very simple, choose wisely the woman you share your life with. By the way, if she is confused on this issue be warned, she is confused on all else. You will have to live with it, and at some point you will have to pay for it even if you don't live with it anymore.
I will stick by my advice. I selected a woman who understands that our firearms are the first and last line of defense for us and our home. Occum's Razor is the best weapon of all. It is really very simple, choose wisely the woman you share your life with. By the way, if she is confused on this issue be warned, she is confused on all else. You will have to live with it, and at some point you will have to pay for it even if you don't live with it anymore.
Monkeybear
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I have met men and women both who found the idea of armed self defense completely ridiculous.
I personally blame the repeated, simplified and often comical depiction of self defense in TV and movies. Usually the woman hits the armed mugger with her purse or dose some lame clumsy martial arts move. If its a guy its always a blaze of made-up kung fu glory or some such nonsense.
Anyway I find that most people seem to think that when violence occurs it happens much like it dose in movies and not the movies where violence is accurately portrayed; those movies are "over-the-top" and "hyper-violent". They like to think its a lot like the movies where everything ends up Ok and no one gets hurt, not even the criminal.
My advice is to educate them on the nature of violence and the realities of crime instead of focusing on the gun.
I personally blame the repeated, simplified and often comical depiction of self defense in TV and movies. Usually the woman hits the armed mugger with her purse or dose some lame clumsy martial arts move. If its a guy its always a blaze of made-up kung fu glory or some such nonsense.
Anyway I find that most people seem to think that when violence occurs it happens much like it dose in movies and not the movies where violence is accurately portrayed; those movies are "over-the-top" and "hyper-violent". They like to think its a lot like the movies where everything ends up Ok and no one gets hurt, not even the criminal.
My advice is to educate them on the nature of violence and the realities of crime instead of focusing on the gun.
Somebody mentioned about kids and how that might change someone's view on SD. Well, I had an English teacher in high school, she had a baby the same year she was my teacher. In the course of discussing one of the books we were reading, the topic of self defense came up. She said that she would not take another person's life even in defense of her child.
...and, eventually, it all comes down to love.
Each individual has to love her or himself enough to hold his/her body inviolate. If that love is missing, there can be no effective defense of self or others. No-one else has the right to touch, handle, or hurt you without consent.
Each individual has to love her or himself enough to hold his/her body inviolate. If that love is missing, there can be no effective defense of self or others. No-one else has the right to touch, handle, or hurt you without consent.
Hobie
Member
So, after 5 pages is the consensus nature or nurture?
Deanimator
Member
I grew up in Chicago in the '60s. It just so happened that the late Richard Speck was a "hyper-violent" kind of guy, at least when it came to unarmed nurses.
Seems like those guys who recently murdered the mother and the two daughters and set the house on fire were a bit "over-the-top" as well.
There's a scene in one of the "Addams Family" movies where one of Christina Ricci's playmates in some macabre game volunteers, "I'll be the victim!" Ricci just looks her in the eye and says, "You'll ALWAYS be the victim."
In all too many cases, truer words were never spoken...
NCLivingBrit
Member
I'm just going to post my small item of interest pertaining to this topic and not go near the can of worms that no longer needs an opener
My wife isn't an anti. She's been to the range with me (on her own the first time, so she could see if she liked it without having to drag me away from my fun if she wanted to bail) a couple of times. She doesn't own any guns, but she doesn't begrudge me mine. She has a moderate concern I'll accidentally blow my own fool head off as I'm a moderate grade oaf with a minor in clumsy (but paranoid as all hell about ND's).
Our HD situation is this:
She doesn't -think- we will need our HD gun (Mossberg 500, 00 buck) but she realises we -might-, so she makes no fuss at all about it taking up space in her closet. She's recoil shy, so she'd rather not shoot the Mossberg beforehand as she knows it will make her less willing to do so at a later date, but she was fine with practising loading, aiming and firing with snap caps, at least enough to be familiar with the action.
I'd love for her to get a CCW, but she doesn't want one. She's a teacher, so she'd not be able to carry for most of the week (a fellow teacher of hers was fired for having a handgun in his glovebox, which is admittedly a breach of policy) and she doesn't think she needs it. Not through denial, but because she's over 6ft tall and of solid Polish stock. I've got her to carry a pepper-spray can in the car and she is careful, but she just doesn't think the risk justifies a firearm she could only carry under limited circumstances.
She did get all gleeful over her principal trying to get tazers issued to the teachers though, so there's hope yet!
My wife isn't an anti. She's been to the range with me (on her own the first time, so she could see if she liked it without having to drag me away from my fun if she wanted to bail) a couple of times. She doesn't own any guns, but she doesn't begrudge me mine. She has a moderate concern I'll accidentally blow my own fool head off as I'm a moderate grade oaf with a minor in clumsy (but paranoid as all hell about ND's).
Our HD situation is this:
She doesn't -think- we will need our HD gun (Mossberg 500, 00 buck) but she realises we -might-, so she makes no fuss at all about it taking up space in her closet. She's recoil shy, so she'd rather not shoot the Mossberg beforehand as she knows it will make her less willing to do so at a later date, but she was fine with practising loading, aiming and firing with snap caps, at least enough to be familiar with the action.
I'd love for her to get a CCW, but she doesn't want one. She's a teacher, so she'd not be able to carry for most of the week (a fellow teacher of hers was fired for having a handgun in his glovebox, which is admittedly a breach of policy) and she doesn't think she needs it. Not through denial, but because she's over 6ft tall and of solid Polish stock. I've got her to carry a pepper-spray can in the car and she is careful, but she just doesn't think the risk justifies a firearm she could only carry under limited circumstances.
She did get all gleeful over her principal trying to get tazers issued to the teachers though, so there's hope yet!
gitarmac
Member
As a fellow women I also have noticed a pacifist tendency in the female gender, to the point of being entirely irratioinal. All I can think of is the brainwashing by the media and by media aimed at the female population (womens day, NOW, ect). The perception seems to be that it is somehow more morally acceptable to be a victim of a crime than defend oneself against the crime. It has nothing to do with guns at all really, it has more to do with a pink fuzzy bunny outlook on life.
Good luck if you marry this woman.
Good luck if you marry this woman.
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