Glock issues... that kinda hurt

[Warp]

BTF (brass to face) and erratic ejection have been a problem on mostly 9mm pistols for some years now, seemingly worse with Gen4 than the later Gen3

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1402990

 

[TheGoldenSaber]

After seeing all the problems I'm not buying a Glock. Screw that, this is unacceptable. I shouldn't have to do a damn thing to make a $600 pistol reliable. My friend has had a $300 Ruger P95 for over 10 years. He NEVER field stripped it for 10 years, just ran a brush down the barrel and q tipped what he could. I finally field stripped it for him and really cleaned the heck out of it. He's shot thousands and thousands of rounds of every kind of 9mm ammo you can buy and has never had a single shell casing hit him or had a single problem. He's had ONE FTE with steel cased ammo and that is it, in over 10 years. I should have bought a Glock while they still were perfection. This is insane.

 

[Warp]

After seeing all the problems I'm not buying a Glock. Screw that, this is unacceptable. I shouldn't have to do a damn thing to make a $600 pistol reliable. My friend has had a $300 Ruger P95 for over 10 years. He NEVER field stripped it for 10 years, just ran a brush down the barrel and q tipped what he could. I finally field stripped it for him and really cleaned the heck out of it. He's shot thousands and thousands of rounds of every kind of 9mm ammo you can buy and has never had a single shell casing hit him or had a single problem. He's had ONE FTE with steel cased ammo and that is it, in over 10 years. I should have bought a Glock while they still were perfection. This is insane.

Bit of an overreaction/sensationalism here.

 

[AK103K]

Screw that, this is unacceptable. I shouldn't have to do a damn thing to make a $600 pistol reliable.

I know exactly what you mean. Thats what I said about the last half dozen or so 1911's I bought. Ive owned about 40 of them over the years, and pretty much all of them required "fiddling", even the good ones, to get them right. That alone drove me off to SIG's, and then back to Glocks.

Im on Glock number 13 right now, and the only trouble Ive had with them, was one early Gen 1 17 I bought back in the 80's. The rest of them have run fine, from round one, right out of the box. Thats one of the things I like the best about them, no fiddling.

 

[ahtoxa]

The wife's G19 gen4 does the same thing. Already has the latest version recoil spring and ejector.

I think the gen4 was optimized for full power self defense ammo (you know, so it's reliable when it really counts) and so the weaker range ammo just sorta spits out where ever it wants. Must be a gen4 thing. Maybe wear a ballcap?

This is common not only to the Glock. My Walther PPX does something similar.

Never a single failure of any kind, but with some weaker ammo the brass won't fly with as much authority and once in a while can go towards my face, although has never hit me.

When I switch to premium SD rounds, the brass really covers some distance and goes where it should.

 

[TanklessPro]

Wear a ball cap????

So Glock is really trying to push their clothing line......

I own or have shot just about every modern handgun out there and have never have BTF. But I will say that Glocks are what I have the least experience with.

Glockaholics don't go nuts on me for saying this, but I think the Glock grip angle maybe the issue. I think that the angle of the grip is easier to limp wrist. It's not the guns fault, just hold it a bit firmer.

 

[AK103K]

But I will say that Glocks are what I have the least experience with.

Well, thats obvious.

Glockaholics don't go nuts on me for saying this, but I think the Glock grip angle maybe the issue. I think that the angle of the grip is easier to limp wrist. It's not the guns fault, just hold it a bit firmer.

Youre right, its not the guns fault, and grip angle has noting to do with it, nor does "grip" itself. Limp wristing actually has nothing to do with the wrist either, its simply the shooter, allowing the gun and their arm, to move rearward with recoil. Keep the mass behind the gun from moving while you shoot, and it will run until empty, even with no grip at all.

 

[TanklessPro]

Well, thats obvious.



Youre right, its not the guns fault, and grip angle has noting to do with it, nor does "grip" itself. Limp wristing actually has nothing to do with the wrist either, its simply the shooter, allowing the gun and their arm, to move rearward with recoil. Keep the mass behind the gun from moving while you shoot, and it will run until empty, even with no grip at all.

I know that limp wrist has nothing to do with the wrist. It's more of a weak grip. IMO the grip angle of a Glock tends to make people hold it with a weak grip. Just my opinion.

You do hear of a lot of people with limp wrist when shooting Glocks. But hey that's just my observation.

 

[AK103K]

It's more of a weak grip. IMO the grip angle of a Glock tends to make people hold it with a weak grip.

I dont understand how the grip angle would make you hold it with a weak grip. The difference between Glocks and the others angle wise, is really very slight, and if you have any experience with them both, you know that its really a non issue when it comes to shooting them.

Back when that video about Glocks and limp wristing first showed up around the web, I wanted to see if I could duplicate his results, as something didnt seem right to me.

I shot 4 full 17 round mags (68 rounds), with absolutely no grip on the gun, I just let it sit "on" my hand, resting on the web of my hand, in a more or less normal grip position, with my arm behind the gun, and the only thing keeping it from leaving my hand, was my finger in the trigger guard. That 17 fired every round in those 4 mags, without issue. The only time I could get the gun to have an issue, was to hold the gun sideways, 90 degrees to my arm, between my thumb and trigger finger, and then it only happened maybe 1 in 3, and usually more, 1 in 4 or 5. If you keep mass behind the gun, it will work, grip or not. The only time it has issues, is if you allow the gun to move rearward with recoil.

You do hear of a lot of people with limp wrist when shooting Glocks.

You "hear" about it a lot on the internet, and like a lot of other stuff, its often more regurgitation, than it is experience.

Ive rarely seen it in person, and when I did, it wasnt with a Glock, but 1911's and High Powers. Those times I did see it, it was because the shooter hadnt been properly taught to shoot, and was somewhat intimidated by the gun, and with that, if the shooter is allowing the gun and their arm to come back as it fires, you will see it with pretty much any of them.

Show them the error of their ways, and the problem goes away.

You generally dont see shooters who have been shooting awhile, or have been properly taught, having the issue.

 

[TanklessPro]

I dont understand how the grip angle would make you hold it with a weak grip. The difference between Glocks and the others angle wise, is really very slight, and if you have any experience with them both, you know that its really a non issue when it comes to shooting them.

IMO the Glock grip is easier to hold improperly.

Back when that video about Glocks and limp wristing first showed up around the web, I wanted to see if I could duplicate his results, as something didnt seem right to me.

I shot 4 full 17 round mags (68 rounds), with absolutely no grip on the gun, I just let it sit "on" my hand, resting on the web of my hand, in a more or less normal grip position, with my arm behind the gun, and the only thing keeping it from leaving my hand, was my finger in the trigger guard. That 17 fired every round in those 4 mags, without issue. The only time I could get the gun to have an issue, was to hold the gun sideways, 90 degrees to my arm, between my thumb and trigger finger, and then it only happened maybe 1 in 3, and usually more, 1 in 4 or 5. If you keep mass behind the gun, it will work, grip or not. The only time it has issues, is if you allow the gun to move rearward with recoil.

I never saw the videos you are referencing.

You "hear" about it a lot on the internet, and like a lot of other stuff, its often more regurgitation, than it is experience.

The "" was for sarcasm.

Ive rarely seen it in person, and when I did, it wasnt with a Glock, but 1911's and High Powers. Those times I did see it, it was because the shooter hadnt been properly taught to shoot, and was somewhat intimidated by the gun, and with that, if the shooter is allowing the gun and their arm to come back as it fires, you will see it with pretty much any of them.

Show them the error of their ways, and the problem goes away.

You generally dont see shooters who have been shooting awhile, or have been properly taught, having the issue.

I own just about every major make of gun ,except Glock, and have not had a problem with any of them. After a proper "break -in period", of which most guns never really make, the weak link of most firearms is the user.

 

[IdahoHk416]

Change parts out to get it to function properly? Why would you have to do that on "Perfection"?

 

[Infidel4life11]

A ton of Glocks with BTF problems have the 336 ejector. (Of course there are a ton of other issues that can contribute the ejector is the most common)

this is what the 336 looks like



This is the 30274

http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/infidel4life11/media/Mobile Uploads/image-10.jpg.html?filters[user]=123619700&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

Here they are side by side 336 vs 30274


30274 is beefier and has a different angle.

Both ejectors are on Glock 19s. The info came from my Glock Armorer's course in Oct.

My EDC 19 Gen3 is the same gun I use in USPSA and Steel Match has the 336 in it. I don't have brass to the face enough to consider it an issue. My size, ammo and the way I shoot probably contributes to that. Others have shot my 19 and been hit in the face with brass.

 

[AK103K]

IMO the Glock grip is easier to hold improperly.

I still dont understand your thoughts here. I have, or have had, pretty much all the major makes and grip types, and see no difference in how I hold them.

There is a slight difference in how the Glocks point compared to most of the others, but when you examine that, the Glock actually mimics your natural wist angle of how you point, and requires no shift in your wrist to get that natural "point". Try it with the others, and youll see the muzzle is usually pointing slightly downwards, and requires you to adjust to it.

Then again, if you dont shoot a Glock, you wont notice that you are actually adapting your grip to the other guns when you shoot them.

I never saw the videos you are referencing.

Google "Glock limp wrist video", you'll find them.

I own just about every major make of gun ,except Glock, and have not had a problem with any of them. After a proper "break -in period", of which most guns never really make, the weak link of most firearms is the user.

Of course the user is the weak link, thats a given for any of them.

As I said earlier, and like you, Ive owned and shot pretty much all the major makes/types over the years, and other than a bunch of the 1911 clones, never had an issue with most of them, including the Glocks.

Glocks, along with SIG and HK, were the only ones I found to work 100% out of the box as well, no break in or fiddling necessary. Just load the mags and shoot.

Change parts out to get it to function properly? Why would you have to do that on "Perfection"?

Anyone who claims "perfection", is lying to you, and we all know that.

With that said, there are different levels of reliability approaching "reasonable perfection", which from what Ive seen with the 13 or so Glocks Ive owned, has shown to be pretty close to it, from the standpoint of working reliably right out of the box. My SIG's and HK's were the only others to do the same.

Anyone telling you, you have to break a gun in before its reliable, is lying to you. They are just handing you excuses.

A ton of Glocks with BTF problems have the 336 ejector.

Infidel4life11, any idea what might have changed with that ejector, or the guns themselves, that seems to be causing the problem?

Since it seems to be such an issue, has Glock explained to its armorers anything other than to just replace the ejectors/extractors?

I just pulled the slides on a half dozen of my Glocks, all Gen 3 17's, 19's, and 26's, and all have the 336 ejector, and all have been 100% (with good ammo). As I said earlier, the only time I have had issues, is when I get into a heavily worn lot of brass from constantly being cycled and reloaded and the rims are chewed up. Fresh reloads or factory, and theres no issue what so ever.

 

[decoy562]

Must be a gen 4 thing, my gen 3 G23 doesn't do that.

Got hit in the face with brass from my little LCP Saturday though : (

 

[9mmepiphany]

It started in the later production Gen3 G19s.

It was a change in the extractors being used. Besides being cheaper to produce, they traded extractor purchase for ease of the case being fed under the hook

 

[Infidel4life11]

I still dont understand your thoughts here. I have, or have had, pretty much all the major makes and grip types, and see no difference in how I hold them.

There is a slight difference in how the Glocks point compared to most of the others, but when you examine that, the Glock actually mimics your natural wist angle of how you point, and requires no shift in your wrist to get that natural "point". Try it with the others, and youll see the muzzle is usually pointing slightly downwards, and requires you to adjust to it.

Then again, if you dont shoot a Glock, you wont notice that you are actually adapting your grip to the other guns when you shoot them.


Google "Glock limp wrist video", you'll find them.


Of course the user is the weak link, thats a given for any of them.

As I said earlier, and like you, Ive owned and shot pretty much all the major makes/types over the years, and other than a bunch of the 1911 clones, never had an issue with most of them, including the Glocks.

Glocks, along with SIG and HK, were the only ones I found to work 100% out of the box as well, no break in or fiddling necessary. Just load the mags and shoot.


Anyone who claims "perfection", is lying to you, and we all know that.

With that said, there are different levels of reliability approaching "reasonable perfection", which from what Ive seen with the 13 or so Glocks Ive owned, has shown to be pretty close to it, from the standpoint of working reliably right out of the box. My SIG's and HK's were the only others to do the same.

Anyone telling you, you have to break a gun in before its reliable, is lying to you. They are just handing you excuses.


Infidel4life11, any idea what might have changed with that ejector, or the guns themselves, that seems to be causing the problem?

Since it seems to be such an issue, has Glock explained to its armorers anything other than to just replace the ejectors/extractors?

I just pulled the slides on a half dozen of my Glocks, all Gen 3 17's, 19's, and 26's, and all have the 336 ejector, and all have been 100% (with good ammo). As I said earlier, the only time I have had issues, is when I get into a heavily worn lot of brass from constantly being cycled and reloaded and the rims are chewed up. Fresh reloads or factory, and theres no issue what so ever.

Basically I got the "the ejectors are for sale and this is how you replace them" speech but the instructor also said that Glock has replaced the ejectors for customers complaining about it but the numbers of owners turning them into Glock is very little compared to how many 336s are out there. I don't have a solid answer Glock has tweaked the design in between Gens. There a too many factors to consider the ejector seems to be the easiest fix.

 

[powder]

When you are done shooting clean the pistol, including an old tooth dry brush to the extractor area.

I wear ball caps when I shoot, doesn't bother me, I'm usually getting hit with brass from SOMEBODY nearby anyway...