Glock-like designs

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Messages
247
Location
Finland EU
I have just been reading a magazine with an article about the Walther PPS, and was wondering how companies like S&W and Walther can produce what appear to be straightforward copies of the Glock design.

Did Glock somehow fail to protect its designs, or have they been licensed out to the likes of S&W and Walther?
 
They do the same things by doing it in not the exact same way. The thing about Glock is that they where designed by someone who took a fresh peice of paper, and was good enough for enough people to accept reinforced Nylon 6 as a frame material.
 
There are only a few basic "principles" of gun design , so the vast majority of designs end up overlapping each other to some degree; even the Glock uses several design features that had been tried previously, it's just that Glock put several of those features together in a combination that hadn't been tried before. That being said, they can't simply straight-across COPY a design from someone else (unless they're someone like Norinco, which is an arm of the Chinese gov't). S&W ran into this with the first iteration of the Sigma, and after Glock took them to court for patent infringement, they were found guilty and had to change the design of the Sigma and pay royalty fees to Glock for the pistols they had already sold.
 
Surely Glock patents have expired by now. Doesn't that put Alois Glock in the same category as John Moses Browning?

Cordially, Jack
 
The thing about patents is that they are set for a very specific design. If you were to modify the design (adding an extra spring or other minor details) that caused the mechanical function to be slightly different, you are not infringing on the patent. Firearms are simple enough in function that a slight modification still produces the same or similar end results (pull trigger, gun goes bang, recoils and recocks itself). There certainly are few firearms out there that function in a way that is radically different from what is currently on the market. And until we move into the next generation of weapons (electrically fired weapons, magnetic rail guns, phased plasma rifles, phased proton emitters, etc) that will likely not change much.
 
You'd be suprised to see how much the actual functional design of a Glock has in common with a 1911. There's only so many ways to make a handgun work. Gaston based his off of several of JMB's ideas.
 
GLOCK actually sued S&W for patent infringement on their Sigma line and won. The fact is that a design only needs to be changed slightly to keep it from being a patent infringement.
 
All patents expire. The time varies from country to country, but has stabilized at 20 years from the date of submission, IIRC (yes, it was changed from the old U.S. standard of 17 years from date of issue...it was an international trade concession)

Glock's patents were dated around 1980...so they are quite expired at this point.

And as has been mentioned by other posters, Glock used a lot of Browning principles. But the patents on those had expired, so he was perfectly legal to do so.
 
Just Off the Top of My Head...

...the Springfield Armory XD (neé HS-2000) pistol, S&W M&P pistols and Kahr pistols all bear some resemblance to the Glock. As I recall, Kahr successfully sued Colt for infringing a couple of their patents.
 
Ruger just almost exactly copied the Kel-Tec P3AT. They even copied the parts list drawing!
And they didn't get in trouble.

Or even a guilty conscious apparently!

rcmodel
 
Misunderstanding

I think there is smoe misunderstanding. When you patent a firearm or anything else for that matter, you must have something that is original in your design and not in general use. You cannot patent a car, plane or pistol. They are in common use.

You can patent a unique feature. GLOCK sued S&W for infringing on a part of the GLOCK pistol that was unique. The SIGMA was such a close copy that some parts were found to be interchangeable.

Same think with KARR. KARR has an offset barrel link (if I remember correctly). COLT adopted this feature on their PONY compact 9m.m. KARR sued only for PONY pistols being made and not the earlier .380 caliber single action guns on which the PONY was based.

KIMBER adopted a safety system that COLT had used in prior to World War II for their 1911 models. The patent has expired.
PARA ORDNANCE licensed the passive safety system used by COLT in their series 80 pistols and pays for it.

Jim
 
Ruger just almost exactly copied the Kel-Tec P3AT. They even copied the parts list drawing!
And they didn't get in trouble.

Or even a guilty conscious apparently!

rcmodel

I'm not defending ruger at all, I believe what they did is wrong. But the P3AT wasn't patented.
 
Sure enough. I just took my kahr apart. It does have an off center barrel link, and an off center feed ramp.

Weird. What is the purpose of that?
 
Offset Link

LOOMIS

The offset link is supposed to allow a more compact pistol design.

Jim
 
was glock the first plastic handgun?....no, first striker based gun?...about 90 years off, first high capacity handgun?....50 years off, what was it they did original again?
 
I have just been reading a magazine with an article about the Walther PPS, and was wondering how companies like S&W and Walther can produce what appear to be straightforward copies of the Glock design.

Did Glock somehow fail to protect its designs, or have they been licensed out to the likes of S&W and Walther?
Take a look at an HK VP70.
 
was glock the first plastic handgun?....no, first striker based gun?...about 90 years off, first high capacity handgun?....50 years off, what was it they did original again?

I was particularly thinking of features like the way the pistol disassembles (that catch thing that slides down using the protrusions on both sides) and the 'half cocked' striker mechanism that is quite distinct from the designs of 90 years ago.

Take a look at an HK VP70

Sounds interesting, will do!

I think that Mike OTDP has hit the nail on the head - if the patents have expired then that explains it perfectly. I can barely believe it's 20 odd years already since the Glock came out - time flies, doesn't it :eek:
 
what makes me marvellous is the fact that none of glock like designes surpassed now almost 30 year old unchangebale original Glock.
 
I heared VP70 have the worst triggers ever designed
just has the pleasure/dis-pleasure of firing one this past weekend. Fired 10 rds, gave my finger a rest and fired the remaining 8.
 
So what, if anything, keeps any company from blatantly copying another company's design once the patent is expired?
A few years ago, a friend gave me a big coffee table book of guns for Christmas. I thought it was going to be one of those "this is a gun" general survey books. Instead, it turned out to be a virtual catalog of most of the handgun makers in the world. Judging from the Norinco section, NOTHING stops them from blatantly copying ANY handgun, patents be damned.
 
Norinco is a Chinese company, right?

There are different degrees of patent or copyright infringement enforcement depending on the country. There are many Chinese companies that blatantly copy designs from other countries without reproach.

Anyway once the patents are expired, then it is public domain. Nobody is "copying" it at that point, they are simply using what is known as "common knowledge" to those "skilled in the art" of firearms design.

Furthermore there are two types of patents: design patents and utility patents. The design patent, while you might think applies to some mechanical or functional design, actually applies to what would normally be called the "look and feel" or "shape", it is sort of like a copyright for physical objects. A utility patent is where the real action is, and they have to provide exactly what is novel or new about a particular method or apparatus such as a pistol. One would think that there is little legitimate, patentable innovation in firearms design.

Glock certainly does not have an enforceable utility patent that would have been in force during their first generation pistol production, since it has been over 20 years. But it is routine for companies to revise a design and file a new patent that is only different in a small way to the original patent, thus extending the protected period for a design. I have no idea what Glock has done in this area but it would be interesting to read any Glock patents and see how they were written.

AFAIK the S&W v. Glock lawsuit resulted in a very, very minor change to the Sigma sear assembly, and I tend to agree with S&W that the suit had virtually no merit, even if judging only by the fact that S&W made the change with zero impact to the function of the pistol.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top