Glock "worse case scenario mods".

[possum]

At a recent course i attended the point of setting up your gun up for the worse case scenario was brought up. That being a type 3 (double feed) with only one hand, most importantly the weak/ support/ hand only etc. Can you do it without these mods? sure you can but this makes it much easier. I did these mods if anyone is curious.





and stippling, only in the areas where it is needed. Under the trigger guard and on the left side.

 

[Gunnerab]

Awesome work, looks great. How did you do the stippling?

 

[WardenWolf]

He probably used a soldering iron for the stippling.

If I were modifying a Glock for a worst-case scenario, I think the first thing I'd do would be to cover the frame with kevlar so I'd still have a hand if it went boom. That's honestly the true worst-case scenario. However, mods like this create a NEW worst-case scenario: voiding your warranty. I do think you did a good job on the gun overall, but I seriously question whether (a) it would help you, or (b) whether you will ever be able to get it serviced again if something else goes wrong with it.

 

[possum]

Awesome work, looks great. How did you do the stippling?

Thank you, and actually the stippling looks even better in person, it is not very photogenic with a bright flash etc. yes I did use a soldering Iron and I have been doing this a while, I am also a custom kydex holster maker so I am pretty good with hand tools and plastic.

If I were modifying a Glock for a worst-case scenario, I think the first thing I'd do would be to cover the frame with kevlar so I'd still have a hand if it went boom. That's honestly the true worst-case scenario. However, mods like this create a NEW worst-case scenario: voiding your warranty. I do think you did a good job on the gun overall, but I seriously question whether (a) it would help you, or (b) whether you will ever be able to get it serviced again if something else goes wrong with it.

1) yes because no other gun in the world has or can have the potential to kaboom.

2) voided warranty doesn't matter, I and many others can "re-do" everything in and on a glock in about 20 minutes. I need no warranty service, however if I did I would be covered anyway. Like I said I have been doing this a while, and it is a smaller world than you think. Glock will take care of me... if i needed it.

3) yes it does help me, type 3 malfunction clearance 2 hands, and especially weapon and reaction hand only are much smoother, ad more efficient. As well as other things.

again not worried about warranty work, as a matter of fact the kinda people like me that do mods to their guns( which there are more and more everyday) are generally the people that are well known in the industry and have the ability to influence a lot of people.

Glock isn't going to blow off some dudes because they made some mods to their guns, when those dudes are in a Tier 1 unit, run a training company that teaches thousands of students a year etc. Especially those dudes, as they have so much influence in the industry. One dude can say something bad about glock or whoever in this industry and the company that they dislike will loose stock overnight. Those are the people that are doing mods the most (shooters/ fighters/ not gun collectors that spend more time worrying about kabooms than functionality and practicality). Will you or anyone else on THR be covered if you do this and have issues? I have no idea and I am not going to say yes or no, but I know i am taken care of. Additionally people that do mods and give companies feedback are how companies like glock get ideas like the RTF and the Gen 4 treatment.

I am still trying to convince glock that they need to make a single stack sub compact 9mm/ 40 to compete with Kahr and kel tec and such..... 3 years now and thye aren't budging. oh well you can't have it all, and it would probably just blow up anyway.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I am still trying to convince glock that they need to make a single stack sub compact 9mm/ 40 to compete with Kahr and kel tec and such..... 3 years now and thye aren't budging. oh well you can't have it all, and it would probably just blow up anyway.

Maybe they will go with a big bang pistol like the Desert Eagle (Kahr now owns) Glock has what it takes to get the job done IMHO

 

[W.E.G.]

I don't understand this worry about not being able to remove the magazine.

I mean, maybe if you were caught in the middle of a gunfight during an avalanche of pea-gravel, you might get a pebble caught in the mag well during a mag change, and that could freeze the mag during your SECOND mag-change.

I suppose the stippling *might* help me hold onto the gun a bit better during the avalance.

If I'm planning to shoot multiple mags during a a gunfight in the middle of a dry-ground avalanche, I think I have bigger problems than I thought.


Am I missing something here?

 

[Sam1911]

He's referring to a "Type 3" malfunction, sometimes thought of as a "double-feed" though it isn't actually.

This is a failure to extract where the slide tries to cycle the next round into the action on top of the fired case that didn't come out. It cannot be solved by a Tap-Rack manipulation because the racking will just eject the currently fouled round (maybe) and try to cycle in the next.

You HAVE to drop the mag to get the next round in the mag out of the way so the slide can close fully and give the extractor another chance at extracting the empty case from the chamber.

Unfortunately, this kind of malf. also tends to hang up the magazine so it won't drop free. With two good hands you can usually get a good enough grip to extract the mag. This modification would give you a lot better purchase if you're trying to strip the mag free one-handed -- like against a belt, boot heel, door frame or whatever.

 

[oneounceload]

At a recent course i attended the point of setting up your gun up for the worse case scenario was brought up. That being a type 3 (double feed) with only one hand, most importantly the weak/ support/ hand only etc. Can you do it without these mods? sure you can but this makes it much easier

And under what real-world scenario might the average gun owner find themselves in such a situationand need these modifications?

 

[doorman]

How would melting the polymer on the frame ie stipling affect function? I get that overheating a polymer frame could potentially warp it is some fashion. I've had a G17 for the last four years and don't recall having any type of malfunction, which the reason I bought it in the first place.

It's different. Nothing wrong with trying to improve things.

 

[Sam1911]

And under what real-world scenario might the average gun owner find themselves in such a situationand need these modifications?

If one hand is wounded/disabled/occupied and your gun jams in this way.

I wouldn't begin to estimate the odds of that happening. I mean, if you really think about it, most of us will never draw a gun in anger at all, ever -- let alone even fire it. And if we do, and our carry weapon is assumed to malfunction in some way at most, what...once every 1,000 rounds? And then figure the odds that the malfunction experienced is this one which isn't the most common kind. So that's (... X times Y, carry the one...) really low odds.

Or maybe you train and/or compete a lot and up your chances significantly of seeing malfunctions, and this helps you out more than just in that one-in-a-million life-or-death moment.

 

[Sam1911]

How would melting the polymer on the frame ie stipling affect function?

This kind of work doesn't change the structure of the frame in any measureable way. You're very briefly heating a 0.0039 square inch or so spot to a depth of maybe 1/16", one spot at a time. That's not going to warp or melt the frame.

 

[W.E.G.]

OK.

I get it.

This is for where you get the most unlikely type of malfunction, while at the same time you only have one useable hand, and you have chosen to rip the magazine out of the gun instead of using the slide-lock to secure the slide to the rear while you sort out the failure.

 

[Sam1911]

That's about the size of it. Is it worth making a simple modification to reduce the difficulty in dealing with an unlikely problem? That's up to each shooter to say.

 

[possum]

And under what real-world scenario might the average gun owner find themselves in such a situation and need these modifications?

I am not average. The first words that catch my eye in your statement and something that I say a lot as well tp describe most people that have guns is " gun owner". I knew I shouldn't have posted something like this on THR, as the people that understand the "why" behind my mods are of the minority and not the majority, and a very small demographic of THR. I wonder how many people that are naysayers have ever cleared a type 3? probably not many, and how many has done it with only one hand, even fewer. I clear more malfunctions one handed in a month than most people shoot live rounds in 3 times that long. That is just how seriously and proficient that I want to be.

what is the chance that you will get in a fight? But you still own a gun why? Is there a chance that I will get into a fight be able to only use one arm, and have a type 3? sure there is a chance and though it is maybe 1 in a million that I get into a fight in the first place, and one in 10 million that all that other crap happens it is still possible.

you set your gun up the way you want to run it in a fight for your life, I will set mine up the best way that I can to give me an advantage anyway I can, and train for the worst. Good luck to you.

How would melting the polymer on the frame ie stipling affect function? I get that overheating a polymer frame could potentially warp it is some fashion. I've had a G17 for the last four years and don't recall having any type of malfunction, which the reason I bought it in the first place.

It's different. Nothing wrong with trying to improve things.

It does not affect functionality one bit. It will not warp it in any way. I am glad that you haven't had any malfunctions in your glock, that is great, and after about 30,000rds a year my malfunctions normally only happen when I set them up. or when there is a parts breakage etc.The number one flaw of a semi auto handgun and the number one cause for issues is the magazine. it can happen. go to any training course and you will see issues after issues.

 

[Sam1911]

Hey, remember our slogan, "Share what you know. Learn what you don't."

I think THR is the perfect place to share this kind of thing. Sure, there are lots of folks here who don't know what kind of malfunctions can happen, or what to do to clear them, or why that might be important.

It isn't likely that a great many guys viewing this thread are going to run out and modify their weapons this way. You didn't really expect them all to, did you? BUT, now they understand a possible problem much better, know the processes for rectifying it, and know of how much concern those issues are to folks who train to be at "the sharp end."

Maybe Gen 5 Glocks will all be built this way -- another step on the road to Perfection, eh?

Think how many folks would have said to Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan, Jelly Brice, and later Jeff Cooper, Jack Weaver, Ray Chapman, Eddie Isosceles (Ha! ), etc., "What's the point in standing that way, holding a gun that way, and shooting like that? I've got a gun so I'm able to protect myself. What are the odds I'll ever have to shoot, certainly more than once, to scare off a bad guy?" How many "gun owners would still ask those questions?

A few guys out at the bleeding edge are always figuring out how to make things just a bit better. That's awesome! So what, that there's millions more who act as inertial resistance to change? Some of them might even help you refine and trouble-shoot your ideas by pointing out flaws. Consider, accept, reject, or refute their concerns and keep on.

But do share. There's a great mix here of folks who can help you, and folks who will benefit from seeing what you're doing, and folks who will simply understand and encourage. If everyone simply agreed with you -- what good would that do?

 

[possum]

All very good points sir! Thank you.

 

[armoredman]

Interesting. We practice fixing the double feed at Dept qualification, but with only one hand, I would likely toss it and go BUG. All the years I have been working with the Glock, and many other semi-auto pistols, (if I remember correctly), the only one I saw with a double feed was either a Jennings or an HK USP, disremember which, many years ago. I have had magazines fall out of Glocks, slides break, that kind of thing, but no double feed. If it's important enough to you to make the modification to your 19, then well done, sir, looks good, but honestly, I could do practically the same thing to the mag well of that pistol without cutting any plastic away - use a Glock 17 magazine.
Of course I am just a low rent prison guard that hasn't ever influenced the mainstream of firearms manufacturing.

 

[possum]

my spare mag is a g-17 mag, however I am not going to carry a 19 with a 17 mag loaded for concealed carry.

again the weakest link to a semi auto handgun is the magazine. If you shoot and or train enough you will have guns that break, you will have malfunctions you will have things happen that are really weird, you are going to have mag springs that fail.

These things are hard to understand by people who buy a gun, shoot it every once in a while, or .mil and or leo's that only shoot when they qualify. This is the majority of the gun owners/ users in America. If you use guns in that manner you will probably rarely if ever have any issues whatsoever with any gun that own, and that is great.

disclaimer: a lot of the why behind the things I do come from real world experiences of things that went well under stress or went very badly under stress, and I since have prepared to ensure that I am never behind the power curve again( hopefully). The things that went well I keep them and hone them. the things that went bad, I now know why, and I have found and or have been trained to not allow that to happen "badly" again. Some things went "badly" because of a bad technique, some went bad from just not knowing; either way it had to be fixed. I am not a fan boy by any means of any company or instructor, as a matter of fact I have been banned from forums, and pissed off a lot of people, however everything that i see no matter how "new" and "cool" it is I first put it up against the common sense meter. Then I think about it under similar situations I have been in in the past and if I think it is feasible and if it would work, and if it passes all that I apply it on the range and in training extensively. The above stuff is no different.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have noticed that since Cooper's Modern Technique of the Pistol became popular, the idea that if faced with a deadly confrontation one should assume the "correct" stance, and then draw and present the pistol in a context of using two hands, is “the way” too do things.

This is all very well, but it presumes something that may not be in evidence - that both hands are available. In training, practice, and gun-games this is true. On a mean street it isn't always the case.

According to the rules of engagement usually in force, one cannot leaglly use deadly force except under circumstances where they are being subjected to an attack, so it follows that there may be some incoming fire before any outgoing goes back. Once shooting becomes a two-way street one has to (or at least should) assume that they may have to respond in kind after being wounded, and thus the "correct" way of doing things in the way of technique may not be available. By extension this includes clearing jams, reloading, etc.

Possum is not only guilty of thinking, but has done so outside the box in an unconventional manner. This I suppose is unforgivable.

I once ask Charles Askins, who had a lot of practical experience when it came to shooting and being shot at, "What is the most important thing when it comes to gunfighting?" He answered in one word, "survive," because obviously if you don't the rest doesn't matter. With this in mind he (and some other notable individuals I knew) didn't hesitate to make modifications - some of them radical - if they thought they would give them an edge.

So I for one, will forgive possum, even though I don't own a Glock. It's the thought that counts...

 

[possum]

The final mod, I had to go to my storage unit to find my roll of 3m step tape. This is on here for several reasons. On the front for press checks, and on the back to assist with the overhand racking, as well as getting purchase on pants etc when doing one handed racks of the slide, for malfunction clearance, reloads etc.

 

[possum]

Old Fuff,

Thank you for your post.

According to the rules of engagement usually in force, one cannot leaglly use deadly force except under circumstances where they are being subjected to an attack, so it follows that there may be some incoming fire before any outgoing goes back. Once shooting becomes a two-way street one has to (or at least should) assume that they may have to respond in kind after being wounded, and thus the "correct" way of doing things in the way of technique may not be available. By extension this includes clearing jams, reloading, etc.

This is a good point, additionaly though it is quite possible that you won't know that you are in a fight until it has already started, IE we "show up late to the fight" for our lives. It is very plausible that you may be injured in some way before the gun comes out, you may have been shot, stabbed, knocked to the ground etc.

Lots of people default to teh scenario of being injured in one hand/ arm as a reason for training in that manner. Though that is a very good reason why, you also have to think about other things. If I am out with a friend, a loved one, or one of my kids and a fight starts I am most likly going to be holding and or shielding them behind me with my "Weak" hand, so right out the gate I only have one hand in the fight.

 

[armoredman]

Like I said, I'm just a grunt, not a high speed low drag operator, I only shoot 100-500 rounds a month, (depending on how hot the range is), not much compared to many, and have been fortunate enough to not yet have to drop the hammer on anyone, so I don't have the expertise everyone else here does. I do carry a larger sidearm concealed in AZ heat, but I can always see your point, smaller is better, which is why I also have the P-01. I suppose you probably have to be dressed professionally, which limits your options considerably, understandable.
So, how DO you grip that sidearm to strip the magazine for your class three, between the knees? Seriously, can you show a pic or two, I'd like to know, might come in handy next time I do a high risk transport. The stippling specifically on only one side piques the curiosity, if you don't mind.

 

[possum]

not a high speed low drag operator,

I am not an operator either. A little background on that word. Long story but this is the short one. That word was developed by the US. Army actually. They wanted to have a way to separate the Special Forces and Delta. The word operator was developed. If anyone tells you that they are an operator no matter what kind where etc, by the Army Definition if they didn't complete the OTC (operator training course) they are not, was not, and will not be an operator.

I would be more than happy to post pics and descriptions for you. It might take me a little but I would be happy to do so. Thank you.

 

[Owen]

I always took "operator" to mean "user."

And Type 3s are a pain. Generally caused by weak/broken extractors, and sometimes, broken ejectors.

 

[blarby]

Very well done.