Goex, Goex Express, & Swiss

[jmaubin]

I've only been shooting black powder only a short time, (look at my joining date here) but I can say that I love the smoke, the smell and the big "boom". I've been getting low on powder and looking to get some more. As of now I've been using Goex 3f for my pistols and Goex 2f for my rifles, I understand the diff. between the grain size.
What I do not understand is what sets apart these 3 types, Goex, Goex Express, & Swiss. Also the "pros and cons" of each.

 

[mykeal]

From the Goex web site (http://www.goexpowder.com/product-express.html):

GOEX Express Black Powder is a high-performance, premium black powder made of a careful mix of the finest quality materials manufactured to rigorous and precise specifications for cleaner burning and softer fouling performance. Designed for competitive shooters, GOEX Express provides very high velocities for extreme accuracy at long distances with a low standard of deviation. GOEX Express Black Powder is available in Fg, FFg and FFFg and granulated to provide optimum performance in metallic cartridges and shotgun shells.

Apparently Goex Express is simply a 'higher quality' Goex type of black powder, and it probably costs more. I have not tried it to see if it does anything any differently, nor do I intend to; plain Goex is good enough for me.

Swiss is a black powder made in Europe. It has a reputation for being a higher quality black powder than Goex and I believe it costs more. I have used Swiss in the past and did not notice any remarkable differences in either the gun's performance or cleanup requirements, but then I did not do a side by side comparison so that might be my fault.

 

[arcticap]

The Swiss may contain a different charcoal and previous chronograph reports have indicated that it produces more velocity.
But it's also said to have a slightly different granulation size compared to Goex which can make a direct comparison difficult.
Sometimes the consistency of grain size makes a measurable difference in performance, especially for competition shooters who may notice a slight difference in velocity and accuracy. Some have also said that the Swiss burns cleaner.
The average amount of ffffg fines in each brand's pound of powder and how it is distributed in each load can make a difference to a competition shooter. So they're often willing to spend more money for their powder and to notice the difference verses the average shooter.
Their perspective may be that it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to insuring the best performance. And if they work up a load with one brand, then that makes it all that much more difficult to switch.
Each gun determines what it shoots the best, but then it's up to each shooter to decide whether to use it or not. What matters in one gun may not matter in another.
Powder selection is often viewed as simply another variable that's subject to personal preference and unscientific speculation that is hard to quantify.

 

[Sagetown]

Just from my reading up on these powders, and not experience, I agree with mykeal. GOEX fffg is probably the best powder for most revolvers. SWISS is a hotter powder as is GOEX EXPRESS.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Swiss runs about 10% stronger, and definitely burns cleaner. It seems to be more consistent as well. I like it for match loads.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

TRIPLE SEVEN 3FFF....That say's it all!!

 

[Sagetown]

As previously mentioned, except for GOEX, I don't have any experince with those other powders, but that's all going to change. I just put in an order with Powder Inc., for a mix of SWISS, KIK, and GOEX ExPress That should put some interest into my black powder shooting.


Sage

 

[jmaubin]

Sagetown please let us all know of your experince and findings.

 

[Sagetown]

Okay jmaubin; I've got my stuff together now. When the weather permits, I'll send a few rounds down range from each brand.

The Hornady .454" diameter ball doesn't appear any larger than the Speer's .451". On the Calipers they measure .452~.453"... ... The Speer measures .451"

 

[Sagetown]

First Test
Cold and Windy 49 degrees ~
Goex and Swiss Black Powder Tests
Hand Gun: 1994 reproduction; 1860 Brass PIETTA .44 Caliber SA Revolver.
GOEX Black Powder measurements: By Volume compared to Weight } ~ 25volume Grains = 23.2 weight grains.

First test was 6 shots using 25 weight grains or (26.8 volume grains) of Goex fffg black powder with one Cabela's vegetable lubed Wad in between the powder and ball, and a SPEER .451"diameter 136 grain soft lead round ball . Each Flute was primed with a Remington #10 Percussion Caps installed with a Snail Capper.

Loading the revolver with the Speer ball left only a small trace of excess lead shavings when seating the ball in the flute. This may have had some influence on the over excessive grouping..??

Recoil was stoutly mild. Didn't notice any stiffining in the action from powder residue.
Accuracy was very erratic.
_________________________________________________________________
Hand Gun: 2007 reproducion; 1860 Steel PIETTA .44 caliber SA Revolver....
Comparing the SWISS powder in volume vs weight was the same.................

Second test was 6 shots using 25 grains of SWISS 3fg black powder covered with a Cabela's vegetable lubed Wad, and a Hornady .454" diameter 142 grain soft lead round lead ball. The Flute Nipples were primed with Remington's New #10 Percussion Caps.

Loading the revolver with the Hornady .454" ball did take more effort than did the .451". It also left a good ring of lead around the top edge of each flute.

Recoil was the strongest I've ever felt from my 1860's. I'd say it needs to be tweaked down a few grains. Accuracy was much better than with the smaller ball despite the recoil. I did feel residue resistance in the action after the 4th round.

Next testing will contine with the remainder two black powders ~ KIK, and Goex Express......

Note: how high the barrel is pointing from recoil of the SWISS load- - - - - -

 

[arcticap]

Here's a current thread comparing Swiss and Goex. It appears that Swiss chronographs noticiably higher than current batches of Goex when tested in rifles.

Read the entire thread, but here's some excerpts:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2333.0

This was not 3f, but 2f that was compared, but here are the results I got using 50 grains by volume of goex 2f and swiss 2f

Swiss 2f

1546
1531
1574
1558
Avg 1552

Goex 2f

1349
1362
1376
Avg 1362

I didn't think it was that bad, but the new lot of 3F GOEX I got is a good 150/200 fps slower than the last GOEX powder I used, bought locally. Dropping from 2,147fps down to 1,960fps was a bitter pill to swallow - same powder measure - very close temps - same gun and patch.

Ross Seyfried found almost 20% difference between GOEX and Swiss in English ctg. gun regulation. His problem was most ctgs. wouldn't allow enough GOEX to attain regulation, whereas the Swiss regulated perfectly with stamped powder charges. Where there was room, it took 20% more GOEX. This was with charges well over 100gr. in the larger bores, from .50 on up.

I know some guys who use Swiss in their .40 and .45 cal. chunk rifles use around 55gr. in .40's to to 60gr. in .45's of Swiss powders, whereas my most accurate loads with similar load combinations have been 65gr. in the .40 and .70gr. in the .45, using 3F GOEX.

Swiss definitely gives higher speeds per gain weight.

 

[jmaubin]

Great Info Guys, Anyone know how "Goex Express" would fair in these tests?

 

[Sagetown]

Great Info Guys, Anyone know how "Goex Express" would fair in these tests?

jmaubin; I'm fixin to find out.
Since Goex Express is supposed to be equivalent to the Swiss powder, I'll run 20 grains of Goex Express instead of the 25 like I did with the Swiss. Probably do the same with the KIK powder.

I'm using an old Thompson Brass Pistol Black Powder Measure that ranges between 20-60 grains at 5 grain steps.

When loading the lead balls; I think the Speer .451" Balls may be just a tad smaller than the Hornady .451", or maybe more uniform in size, as I get a about half a ring of shavings off the Hornady, and some of the Speer didn't shave off any.

 

[moooose102]

+1, triple 7! for ME, i like current technology better than 600 year old technology. plus triple 7 does not smell nearly as bad. real bp makes me sick!

 

[Sagetown]

Apparently Goex Express is simply a 'higher quality' Goex type of black powder, and it probably costs more.

From Powder Inc.'s invoice........ 1 pound of FFFg Black Powder
by Brand
GOEX . . . . . . . . . .$12.75
GOEX Express . . . . $17.75
Swiss . . . . . . . . . .$19.25
KIK . . . . . . . . . . . $10.60 ~ because they were out of Schuetzen which is similar, they reduced prices of KIK until they get restocked on Schuetzen.

 

[arcticap]

Why not?

From Powder Inc.'s invoice........ 1 pound of FFFg Black Powder
by Brand
GOEX . . . . . . . . . .$12.75
GOEX Express . . . . $17.75
Swiss . . . . . . . . . .$19.25
KIK . . . . . . . . . . . $10.60 ~ because they were out of Schuetzen which is similar, they reduced prices of KIK until they get restocked on Schuetzen.

It's novel to think that if Swiss is that much better, then individual duplex loads could be concocted so as to benefit from some of it's superior characteristics, at least for practice anyway and without all of the extra cost associated with shooting it exclusively.

 

[Sagetown]

From surfing through the internet, I've learned that Scheutzen and Swiss blackpowders are made by the same manufacturer in Brazil (Schuetzen Powder, LLC) that used to make Elephant Brand blackpowder. Except for China's Blackpowder plant that makes "Thundershot", there are only two manunfactures of blackpowder. Schuetzen Powder, LLC of Brazil, and Goex in Berlin, Pennsylvania.

Both domestic and foriegn blackpowders are made by the same process, but not identically. The Swiss brand is Schuetzen LLC's competition powder. Goex now produces Goex Express, the equivalent to Swiss, as Goex's (KIK) is to Schuetzen. :banghead: I hope I've got that right..................

 

[fspitzdorf]

+1, triple 7! for ME, i like current technology better than 600 year old technology. plus triple 7 does not smell nearly as bad. real bp makes me sick!

It also doesn't ignite fer poopie in a flintlock due to the higher ignition temperature when compared to good ole stinky dirty BP...

Fine in my caplocks though... keeps me out of the laundry tub too

 

[sundance44s]

I`ve just about shot a 25 case of KIK 3F I bought from Powder Inc over a year ago ...I think I have 3 cans left ...it was 256.00 to my door ....I just check the price for my order this time it is 260.00 to the door ...not bad ...
This KIK seems a little hotter than Goex although I never did shoot any through my crono ....it just feels a little stouter in my guns ......I`m going to order a few cans of it in 2F to try in my Sharps 45/70 loads .
If you order from Powder Inc ...give this KIK powder a try ...it`s a little cheaper than the Goex and it performs as well or better and clean up seems the same .

 

[Sagetown]

Thanks for the report sundance. I haven't gotten out to try the KIK blackpowder yet. Weather won't cooperate. It's supposed to be similar to the (old Elephant Brand) Scheutzen. KIK is much cheaper than GOEX, and I'm thinking the Scheutzen may be less than that. Purchasing by the case is the way to go if you're not able to stop by GOEX and pick some up.

 

[Acorn Mush]

From surfing through the internet, I've learned that Scheutzen and Swiss blackpowders are made by the same manufacturer in Brazil (Schuetzen Powder, LLC) that used to make Elephant Brand blackpowder. Except for China's Blackpowder plant that makes "Thundershot", there are only two manunfactures of blackpowder. Schuetzen Powder, LLC of Brazil, and Goex in Berlin, Pennsylvania.

The label on my container of Scheutzen says it if manufactured by Wano Schwarzpulver GmbH in Kunigunde, Germany. I got it about two years ago. My can of Swiss says it was made in June of 2001 by Poudrerie D'Aubonne S.A. in Switzerland. Were the manufacturing locations change between then and now? Just wondering.

 

[Sagetown]

Gee Acorn, thanks for the heads-up !
I don't know where I saw that, I may have misread the location. I'm on dial-up and its so slow. Maybe someone will correct me because it sure looks like I'm wrong at this point.

edited: Okay; Elephant Brand Blackpowder was manufactured in Brazil. It was purchased by Scheutzen Powder, LLC. of Germany. Here is where the rub comes in. Is it manufactured in Germany, Switzerland, Brazil, or all three locations? What I read was that the plant in Brazil is still manufacturing blackpowder under the Schuetzen LOGO.

 

[Acorn Mush]

What I read was that the plant in Brazil is still manufacturing blackpowder under the Schuetzen LOGO.

Interesting news. Thanks for the information. I sure hope the powder to be produced at that plant will be better than the old Elephant stuff.

Hopefully the new owners will make it happen.

I don't think it is possible to have TOO MANY sources of GOOD powder.

 

[Jim Watson]

Current distributors of black powder claim that Schuetzen is made by Wano in Germany.
They also want you to think that Swiss powder is made in Switzerland. Which is what is says on mine, but I have had my present lot number for a while.

 

[Sagetown]

Here's a kink in the works. WANO has twice attempted to sell their powder to the U.S., but the European powder is of a different grain texture than what the U.S. requires. Also the U.S. requires an (F) configuration. Is it possible that they distribute the U.S. approved brands of Schuetzen and Swiss to the U.S. through the Brazilian plant to keep the powders separate?