Goex 2f or 3f

[Garys001]

Hello everyone,

First post, I've been lurking for a while though.

I just picked up a Uberti 1875 Outlaw in 45 Colt and want to reload black powder cartridges for it. I've been told to use Goex 3f for pistol cartridges, but on Goex's website it says to use 3f for pretty much all of the pistol cartridges EXCEPT for 45 Colt. It says to use 2f.

Here is the link:

http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Pistol-Revolvers.pdf

Can I use 3f, or should I stick with 2f? I only ask because I was going to buy online in bulk and split the order with 2 other guys, but they only use 3f powder.

Thank,
Gary

 

[George Mabry]

Congradulations on your 1875 Outlaw. Nice looking gun.

Gary, I use 3F on all my handguns up to and including my .54 caliber Plains pistol. I also use 3F in my .45 flintlock rifle. The only time over the last 30 years that I've used 2F was in my .58 Zouave and there have been plenty of times I've run 3F through the Zouave when I didn't have 2F.

You might have to do some adjustments on powder charges (and maybe not) but that will be for you to decide once you have a chance to get to the range and put some shot on paper and see how it's patterning. But as far as safety goes, you'll be fine.

My advice is to go ahead and make the 3F bulk purchase and enjoy your shooting.

George

 

[Sagetown]

Hi Garys001: 3Fg BP burns faster than 2Fg. That's why it is used in short barrel guns. However; loading it in a cartridge may be the reason GOEX says to use the 2Fg rather than 3Fg when loading for the .45 caliber .

There are many pro's and con's on this subject.

p.s. You can mix your bulk orders from Powder Inc. The other distributors may mix their orders too.

 

[TheRodDoc]

the length of the barrel has less to do with any thing as the weight of the projectile. that decides which granulation to use. a heavier bullet takes longer to get it moving. which gives the powder more time to burn in chamber. all the time raising the chamber pressure till it is all burnt. black powder can produce 100,000 lbs/sq/in pressure in a confined space. way more then enough to ruin a revolver.

FFFG burns fast enough that it can be mostly burnt before a heavy bullet can start to move. causing very high and possibly dangerous pressures.
plus if any powder crushing happened during loading the fffg was turned to even finer powder which burns even faster yet. and even quicker burning and even higher pressures before bullet starts to move. Black powder does not compress. doing so will only will break grains to smaller ones.

a 45 cartridge with 250 gr. bullet should use FFG. a lighter round ball might be ok with FFFG.

 

[ClemBert]

I use FFFg powder with a 250 grain bullet in my 45 Colt reloads. With 45 Colt you are on the fence with regard to using FFg or FFFg. Depending on who you ask you will get a different answer.

 

[mykeal]

FFFG burns fast enough that it can be mostly burnt before a heavy bullet can start to move. causing very high and possibly dangerous pressures.

Please cite your data supporting this statement.

 

[TheRodDoc]

plain old laws of inertia.

 

[Sagetown]

by ClemBert ~ I use FFFg powder with a 250 grain bullet in my 45 Colt reloads. With 45 Colt you are on the fence with regard to using FFg or FFFg.

By your post, you've never experinced any barrels being blown off. How about high pressure signs ? Probably not, or we'd hear about it real quick. If, then, there is no absolute danger in using FFFg BP, would that imply that GOEX is merely stating this for extra insurance for the inexperinced .45 cal cartridge reloader ? Just asking......

 

[ClemBert]

IMHO, the GOEX Cartridge-Pistol-Revolver Chart isn't showing you either recommended loads nor maximum loads. They are merely showing performance test results based on "preferred granulations". As you can see they don't even give you the specifics of the "test device" used to fire the cartridge. Again, IMHO, GOEX is just giving you examples of various loads.

The Lyman Blackpowder Handbook & Reloading Manual, on the other hand, provides the following .45 Colt reloading data:



p.s. I would recommend anyone and everyone shooting BP revolvers, rifles, with or without cartridges to pick up a copy of the Lyman BP Handbook.

"GOEX says to use the 2Fg rather than 3Fg when loading for the .45 caliber" probably is NOT an accurate statement. Just like they aren't telling you what projectile you should be using they aren't telling you what your load should be. These are just examples.

 

[mykeal]

plain old laws of inertia.

Ok, then please provide the calculations.

 

[Garys001]

Thank you everyone for the replies, very useful information.

ClemBert, I am most definitely picking up the Lyman manual, thanks for the suggestion.

Guys, I have one more question, hopefully not too stupid. I see that Lyman has loading data for both FFg and FFFg with each having different volumes. Since there is not supposed to be any air gap in the cartridge for black powder, how do you get the same cartridge OAL for the two different powders? Do you have to use a filler, or are they both compressed, one just more than the other?

Thanks again for the help,
Gary

 

[ClemBert]

There are various ways to assemble a BP 45 Colt cartridge including using varying amounts of BP, filler, compression, different size projectiles and perhaps a drop tube. Just like the GOEX chart the Lyman chart isn't telling you how to load your cartridges. They are only giving a few examples. I generally load 35 to 40 grains of FFFg in my cartridges. Many folks use less powder and incorporate fillers. As you indicated, make sure you avoid air gaps. The compression should be minimal to moderate. Avoid severe compression that will crush the granules.

p.s. I like to keep the crimp, if any, very minimal.

 

[Foto Joe]

Garys001,

A word of caution about loading 45 Colt, it's contagious!! Soon you'll find yourself thinking about loading other brass with Black Powder, then for the brass you don't own guns for you're liable to go buy a gun to fit the brass. It's a vicious cycle to say the least.

You'll find that there are a few of us here that have fallen victim to this sub-culture of Black Powder shooting. I started out with the 45 Colt and as ClemBert alluded to, I'm one of these why usually doesn't shoot full 40gr loads. I prefer the "Gallery Loads", simply because they don't eat as much that way.

I will tell you, if you don't have 2f, don't sweat it. The 3f works safely just as well. You do want to try to find lead that has Black Powder lube though and it is out there, Powder Inc. sells SPG lubed bullets. ClemBert turned me onto a company called Dash Caliber. I've got those bullets loaded, but I haven't had time off to shoot any yet, hopefully this weekend I'll be able to post a range report.

Figure out what works best for your application and have fun, but remember...you were warned!!

 

[Garys001]

ClemBert, again thanks for the help.

Foto Joe, I can't wait for my pistol to arrive! It's due in tomorrow and I have 2 boxes of black powder cartridges from Buffalo Arms already waiting at home ready to be used. I'm going to order some powder from Powder, Inc. in the next day or two. I'll look into the bullets from Dash Caliber. I was looking at Black Dawg or Meister lubed bullets on Midway, but I'm always open to suggestions.

When I told my family that I was getting a black powder handgun and that it was smokey, smelly and dirty they just smiled and completely understood. They know me very well.

 

[Savvy Jack]

Well, I'll bite!

I shoot an Uberti 45 Colt with a 5.5" barrel (Slugged to .450), Current batch(Weight varies by batch) of Goex FFF is 38gr by weight (my target weight) = 40gr by volume., .17" compression with a compression die. WLP Primers, OAL 1.663, My cast wheel weight 250gr 454190 (.451) with BP lube.

Avg Vel = 1104fps 676ft/lbs of energy with 2 1/2" groups @ 50' (aim low)

Tried with a .21" compression and got 1082fps with 1" groups @ 50' (poa)

36.4gr by weight= 38gr by volume 1.600 AOL, 816fps@ 1 3/4" groups @ 50' (aim high)

Compare this to a Springfield XDm 40S&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGsMMFN1fbE

Slow Motion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5YPlNt1kpM

 

[Savvy Jack]

Clembert, No pressures noted for the 45 colt so look at the 44-40 loads on page 317. Focus only on Goex FFF and FF for both the 427666 and 427098 bullets. Note the pressures from each loading using same volume of powder for each bullet. For the 427666 200gr, 31gr of FFF is 7,000 cup and 9,600 for the 427098 205gr. Some what of a big difference. Note again with using FF. 427666 200gr bullet using 30.5gr of FF is 5,300 cup and 7,300 with 30gr of FF

Different weight bullets and even the design of the bullets can affect chamber pressures. If I recall correctly the cup for the 45 colt is 14,000....and I think 12 or 13,000 for the 44-40. However, my Uberti 45 colt also has a cylinder for the 45 ACP that will handle 21,000 C.U.P. but thats another story!

 

[Oyeboten]

Good thread, good info.


I was getting conspicuously 'flattened' Primers ( 'FEDERAL' brand ) in my .45 Colt Loadings, 230 Grain Bullet, well compressed 3F Goex of all I could get in.

Still well below what 'UNIQUE' would do at the upper end Loadings, I am sure.


This with a decent-enough Head Space, too, far as that goes.

 

[Sagetown]

Savvy Jack; looks like you've done the extra homework.
Thanks for your imput. Good post.

 

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack; looks like you've done the extra homework.
Thanks for your imput. Good post.

Thanks, maybe I won't get myself killed!

I also shoot an Uberti 5.5 chambered for the 44 WCF (44-40)
Same Goex FFF as in previous post.
40gr by weight but volume is a bit much and compression is not comfortable.
36.4gr by weight=38 by volume (again...important....is the weight varies with each batch of BP). .168 compression (.21 compression original factory 44WCF BP loads). 200gr Mav Dutch Big Lube bullets and BP lube. 862fps@326ft/lbs of energy. 2" groups at 50'

Self Defense Loads 44WCF
Pyro-P
40gr by volume
200gr SGDJHP .429 (Hollowpoints)
Mag Primers
964fps@412ft/lbs of energy
1" groupings at 15'

Have yet to find best load for my revolvers for the 44-40