Going to London for a week...

[dcdub]

...and I'm wondering if you guys have any good ideas about SD if the need arises. I realize there have been a few threads about this over the years, but most seem to pertain to residents, not tourists.

I've got a 180 lumen light that I reckon I could blind and bludgeon an attacker with. I'm really bummed that I can't even carry my pocketknife or pepper spray. The more I read about the laws over there, the less I want to go. I was also considering a tactical pen. I think I would look a little odd walking around with a cane (maybe some of you older gents can pull it off) or a cricket bat. I'm thinking more of something that can be kept in my pocket or messenger bag and not arouse suspicion.

Any ideas? Thanks

 

[yeti]

You're going to London... carry an umbrella.

 

[metalman8600]

Wear a taqiyah and hope they leave you alone?

The law says that you can't carry any item that has the purpose of self defense. So I don't know how a 'tactical pen' might look to the police.

 

[shotgunjoel]

You're going to London... carry an umbrella.

That was my thought as well. The flashlight sounds like a good idea too, especially if it has a strobe setting.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Not Just Any Umbrella

I have one of the Unbreakable Umbrellas. (Watch the video as he beats the heck out of a heavy bag, and the umbrella still works.)

Wife got it for me last Xmas.

Not cheap. Best part of $200.

Sturdy little sucker, though.

Of course, if you want to wait until you touch down, there's always J. Smith & Sons of London. -->

James Smith & Sons Ltd Hazelwood House 53 New Oxford Street London WC1A 1BL

They have an impressive line of brollies, including a selection of gentleman's Solid Stick Umbrellas.


Of course, at over £225.00 (yes, that's Pounds Sterling, not dollars), they are substantially more expensive than the Unbreakable above, and I would imagine they're not actually designed to take that kind of beating.

If you have time to order one, I'd go with the Unbreakable.

 

[Kurt S.]

I spent a bit of time in London. I found out quick about knives, not so much from just the legal standpoint but also from the the viewpoint of the average bloke. The folks I worked with were horrified by my little CRKT KISS folder. I started carrying my Leatherman tool, which I had an excuse for (worked with an IT department around computers).

The umbrella idea is specifically mentioned as being sanctioned by the authorities in a self defense document I read at the time, I can't seem to find the reference but I will keep looking. The high intensity pocket light seems to be a good idea as well.

Hang out with crowds, maintain situational awareness if you need to take the Tube late at night. Try to learn a little about the neighborhoods before you go.

Cabs- the black cabs are expensive but safe. You might look with a wary eye upon the independent cabs.

You can have a lot of fun in London and come home in one piece, I assure you.

(I had the same question the first time I went to London. A certain individual recommended I find somone to sell me a Russian PSM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSM_pistol while I was there or better yet, just refuse to go. Your Mileage May Vary.)

 

[Odd Job]

All depends where in London you are going and what sort of activities you are planning.
I routinely carry a SAK but like others have said, it is a multitool and that is the primary purpose of having it, if I am stopped and asked about it.
That umbrella is a good idea, also.

 

[bbuddtec]

carry your wallet in a shoulder holster

 

[natman]

No fixed blades of any length. You can carry a knife IF the blade is less than 3" AND it is folding. However, in a classic case of legislating from the bench, a judge ruled that "folding knife" does not include lock blade folding knives. So an ordinary Swiss Army knife is OK, but a 2.5" lock blade is not.

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?975-Summary-of-British-Knife-Law

 

[robert garner]

Marbles,been playing since I was a kid officer, keep'em in a sock 'cause ya never know when you can get up a game.
Cheerio
robert

 

[ultradoc]

what about a letter opener? A roll of coins too.

 

[hso]

dcdub,

Legal isn't the forum for your question since you're asking about what to take and not whether you legally can take a firearm/knife.

If you spend a little time here in NFW you'll see that canes and sticks in their various forms are encouraged, but that some training with them is needed to put them to best defensive use, but that's the same regardless of what you carry. There are non-locking folding knives made just for the UK so you may want to find one of those and keep it well concealed in a pocket.

The other thing you'll see is that researching your destination, identifying the specific high crime areas/times and avoiding them, maintaining awareness and not being hesitant to get yourself out of an uncomfortable situation before it confirms itself to be dangerous is your best course of action.

Our London members point out that London is pretty safe as long as you stick to the better/tourist areas.

The idea of carrying an umbrella is a good one, but not every umbrella is a good defensive weapon. A hickory cane, OTOH is. The problem with any larger stick is that unless you carry it all the time you're constantly fumbling with it and cussing it.

Next size up is a good flashlight. The crenelated cap versions are not needed.

Defensive pens should be as innocent looking as possible. I carry a Timberline LCP in my travels and the authorities in Kuwait have taken 2 of them as I was headed out of their country on the United flight. I learned to quit keeping them clipped to the placket of my shirt and to put them in with other pens and cables and "stuff" in my carryon.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I would take my zebra 701 SS Ink pen and a good Hickory Stock Cane. Plus a Metal Sharpie marker.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Weather

Oh, and BTW, when I was actually living in London, I got used to carrying an umbrella simply as an article of clothing.

Seriously.

Sun shining? That's okay, give it an hour or two.

The weather in England is patterned such that you will never attract attention with an umbrella.

Of course, if you have a nice umbrella, you will not want to lay it down anywhere and turn your back on it. That's how I lost mine. Horn-tipped hardwood handle. Had it rebuilt when I was in Denmark. Been with me for nearly ten years. Laid it down, walked outside, came back. No more brolly.

So, if you do carry one, keep it close. A good bumbershoot is worth coveting.

 

[Carl Levitian]

Dc, you're going to have a great time, and more than weapons, you need to have a really comfy pair of shoes with gell inserts. Lots of walking around, and sights to see.

As far as self defense weapons go, we were there just a year and a half ago, and for the tourist, it's as safe as anywhere else. I left my cutlery home, and just took a Victorinox classic for use as a pen knife in case of cutting open a package or sharpening a pencil. You will need an umbrella, it rained about 3 days out of 5 there. Not real heavy rain, but a constant drizzle with periods of real rain. On a rainy day, the sidewalks of London become a sea of bobbing black umbrella's.

For a flashlight, I carried a AA LED minimag. Plain little light, no fancy crenelated bezel. You want to look innocent, and the bobbies were not born yesterday. They know all about tactical flashlights and tactical pens. The Minimag will ruin somebodys day if used right. I had my old Cross pen clipped in my pocket for standby. The only thing it got used for was writing on post cards to send home.

You have to go to Hyde Park on Sunday morning for Speakers Corner. This is when anyone can bring a soap box and preach, rant, or whatever. It gets amusing. And you can spend three days in the British Museum, and not see it all. The tubes run on time, and is a great way to get around London. Don't bother to rent a car, the traffic is plain nuts.

A good umbrella, sturdy pen, and a minimag flashlight is all you'll need, and you won't really need them, exept for their intended use.

Have a great time!

Carl.

 

[throdgrain]

Thanks for that up-beat slant on my capital city Carl, if I'd of said it people might have thought I was biased

 

[leadcounsel]

I've been to England several times, and London for at least 5 weeks over say 3 visits. I also have friends that live there.

I have never read the laws, but anectdotally, self-defense is frowned upon and self defense weapons are an absolute ticket to jail. No knives or anything that we would commonly associate with self defense.

Now you *might* get away with a cricket bat if you are in the appropriate setting (like a park, or something). An umbrella is a good suggestion. As is the cane, walking stick, or flashlight. Keep in mind there are surveillance cameras nearly everywhere in populated areas. And you still may go to jail for awhile.

Your best defense when traveling around the globe is using your brain and situational awareness. Stay out of potentially dangerous or dumb sitautions. Stay with a buddy, don't wander down dark alleys, don't take rides from strangers (there are a lot of off-license cabs at night - only take legit cabs), don't argue with the locals in pubs, etc.

Overall I've never met an unfriendly Brit and never been in a bad situation there, but maintain your bearings and have fun.

 

[dcdub]

Thanks for the tips guys. Sounds like a nice sturdy umbrella is probably my best bet. A few of you have said that a crenelated bezel is not needed, but do you think its a BAD idea because it could be viewed as a weapon. Probably, they're pretty tough over there.
I definitely intend to keep my wits about me, but sometimes the highest level of situational awareness is not enough, and I want to be prepared for that just in case.

By the way, that umbrella is awesome Arfin. I would probably carry it here too if I had one!

 

[hso]

do you think its a BAD idea because it could be viewed as a weapon

Yes, and pretty pointless.

 

[dcdub]

Pointless, really? I think it would hurt like a b...ee sting!

 

[rusty bubbles]

the Police here are answerable to no one,will arbitarily decide whether the
coins in your pocket

 

[GCBurner]

Carrying any kind of pocket knife in London, under current laws, is just asking to be thrown in jail. The unbrella is the best idea so far, as a heavy cane or walking stick, unless you can prove you need it for mobility, and get you busted if you say it's for defense, or actually use it that way. In any case, don't carry more cash in your pocket that you've budgeted for the day, or more than one credit card in your pocket, and keep your passport, extra cash, ID, and backup credit/ATM cards in a secure moneybelt under your clothes. I got pickpocketed getting on a train when I was over there a couple of years ago by someone brushing against me as I was getting off. He got about 50 Euros in currency and one credit card, but everything else was safe under my pants.

 

[JoergS]

Always carry enough cash with you so a thug won't be too disappointed... I am serious.

Believe me, giving a few quid to an addict is far, far cheaper than hitting him with a weapon in self defense, even if it is a makeshift one. In Europe, you will be treated as the criminal, not as the victim in such cases.

The legal bills will pile up high.

If you get robbed and the robber gets what he wants (enough money for his next dose), then chances are you will walk out unharmed and enjoy the rest of your vacation. Which you won't otherwise.

 

[Kurt S.]

@GCBurner: Good ideas, particularly about the pickpocket stuff, but once I started carrying a Leatherman, there was really no issue, even with my co-workers there. Note that I carry my wallet in a front pocket whether I was in London, Paris, Rio De Janeiro, Calgary, Chicago, Denver, Dallas or NYC. I'm a little hinky about big cities, no matter where.

Regarding the knife warning, can you document that assertion that carrying a pocket blade of any kind will get you in deep doo-doo?

@JoergS: again, some good ideas. But also again, can you come up with some documentation as to the assertions "...In Europe, you will be treated as the criminal, not as the victim in such cases. The legal bills will pile up high..."

I had fun in London, staying out late at the pubs, going to some great restaurants, experiencing some wonderful theater, etc. I was there for 4 weeks one time, 5 weeks another, and a week another time. Guess I must lead a charmed life. Or maybe they just didn't want to mess with a fat ugly Texan .

 

[JoergS]

Kurt, how about this, from here: http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/BritCrimeMyth.htm

"Three cases illustrate the results of these measures:

In 1987, two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London subway car, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified, ''My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life.'' In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

In August 1999, Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two professional burglars burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before but, like 70 percent of rural English villages, his had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and 12 months for having an illegal shotgun.

In 1994, an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house, while he called the police. When the officers arrived they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to put someone in fear. Parliament is now considering making imitation guns illegal."

I am NOT saying Europe - which includes London - is an unsafe place. It is not. I have never been attacked and noone ever broke into my house. I am just saying that if you get robbed, it is a good idea to carry some cash with you, it makes no sense to risk the legal consequences of hurting the robber.