gold dot vs black talon

[rockyourglock]

I have been carrying Gold Dots in my Glock 19 for quite some time now but have never seen them "perform". I hear they are a great round. Luckily i have not had to shoot someone yet! I then start to do research on different types of ammo and find the Winchester SXT black talon "law enforcement" round. I have found several pictures of this round expanded and they look like they are going to destroy whatever they hit! i immediatley bought 100 rnds. I guess to get to the point, does anyone know which one is better than the other? and how can a regular joe see the expansion in both in person? milk jug with water?

 

[rcmodel]

Better make that more then one milk jug of water.

Wet sand or mud will open them just fine too.

None will be exactly the same as performance on living flesh though.

Actually, either bullet is one of the 3rd. Generation JHP designs that passed the FBI testing for penetration through glass, car doors, clothing, and ballistics gel.

I would have no second thoughts about using either one, and I doubt the fool that got shot with either one could tell the difference either.

I do really like the Gold-Dots though!

rc

 

[Yo2slick]

I believe they will both do the job but I like the Black Talons cause Winchester made them!

 

[rockyourglock]

i dont know if i can drink that much milk! lol guess it will be a time consuming process. As bad as this sounds it could actually tell me what im looking for as well. We hunt here in KS...ALOT. Ive acutally thought about taking a deer carcass or something similar and shooting into it. I dont know if i would be about to find the bullet in the event of a pass through? Just a thought i guess.

 

[dakotasin]

i've already shot several deer w/ handguns... hornady xtp's and gold dots are what i now use in all my handguns except the 2 i have set up for cast shooting.

haven't tried the talons, don't see the need. i have a lot of faith in xtp's and gd's.

besides, if you want to test on deer carcasses, you'll want to do it w/ a live one that still has all its fluid and organs, because should you have to shoot a person, s/he is likely to have their fluid and organs in place.

 

[rockyourglock]

very true. I was thinking more of just a "wound channel" view but i guess shooting a live one (not legal in KS with handgun) would show me how the organs respond to it! thanks!

 

[deltastorm11]

I may be wrong but hasnt Black Talon ammo been removed from sale?

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I recall the hysteria over Black Talon specifically because they tear into and shred blood vessals and the like some years ago? I recall something about this.

I purchased a bunch of Gold Dots this weekend and those will be the ammuntion that I choose to stake my life on.

 

[Rodentman]

I think that BT ammo was withdrawn from sale after Colin Ferguson went on his killing spree in NY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson

 

[geronimo509]

hungry seagull, where did you get the Gold dots? I've been looking for 9mm 124+p LE gold dots(just more for the money) and cant find them.

 

[deltastorm11]

But now winchester came up with the SXT right?which they say stands for Same eXact Thing

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I found some at Cabelas online this weekend. Some of the 9mm's are selling out already. Other calibers besides my .45 ACP are still availible.

 

[NoneMoreBlack]

Not sure if they have GoldDot, but Brassfetcher is a good place to look for ballistic test data. I believe the FBI standard is 14" minimum penetration in gel for self defense, so make your choices based on that.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/

 

[rbernie]

Either the SXT or the GD will do you just fine. Pick the one that your pistol likes best and then buy a metric buttload of it.

 

[mljdeckard]

Black Talons are hype. I hope you didn't pay too much for them. They are no more good or bad than any other premium JHP ammo. The story I heard at the time was that the jackets fragment into razor-sharp pieces, which is an HIV risk for the surgeons removing them. (?!)

Try premium loads from Corbon, Federal, and Double-Tap as well.

 

[rockyourglock]

yes, they have razor sharp "talons" that when the bullet mushrooms they form. And after further research today i have found thats one reason they were removed (the DRs getting cut all to pieces!) They have been removed from the market as "black talons" BUT they are still sold as Ranger SXT "black talon" "law enforcement" rounds. Like the earlier post said "same xact thing". I bought them off of www.gunbroker.com. I paid whats to be expected for them seeings how they are extremely hard to find and they way ammo is priced these days anyway. You might try looking on there for the gold dots as well. I bought my gold dots at a local gun retail store in my home town.

 

[mljdeckard]

You do realize, you should make sure your gun will shoot 200 rounds of your carry ammo failure free before you carry i right?

I didn't say I BELIEVED the story about razor-sharp fragments. ALL jackets produce sharp fragments.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I dont want to butcher bad guy only to see Doctors sew him up and have a lawsuit after a invasion. I prefer to bury the matter (Literally) and get on with life. So GD for me over BT.

 

[Odd Job]

There is much confusion over the Winchester Ranger line. Here is something that may help a bit:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=207

In terms of jacketing, the only definite conclusion I can come to is that the Gold Dot with its bonded core is less of a sharps hazard than any of the Ranger line.

 

[rockyourglock]

I shoot a Glock! Its not going to fail before 200 rounds. But you do make a good point on the lawsuit issue. But like you also said, lets just bury the matter and be done with it. I honestly hope that if for some reason i do get into a fire fight that i fataly wound who im shooting at and not just blow a few holes in em! im definatley liking the mixed oppinions on this issue though! i def. appriciate everyones views and i am taking them all in! keep rockin ladies and gents!

 

[gglass]

The current king of the hill Law Enforcement ammunition is Federal HST. The below link is to a series of LE agency tests against other ammo manufacturers that was funded by Federal, but all testing was done by LE agencies. HST is the real deal!

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

This is how it always looks:

 

[rscalzo]

I prefer to bury the matter (Literally) and get on with life

Do you seriously think that your senario will stop a lawsuit? How many fatal shootings have resulted in a lawsuit after the fact. Doing it correctly is the way to stop legal or civil actions after the fact.

 

[rbernie]

This is a thread veer, but it needs to be addressed.

I dont want to butcher bad guy only to see Doctors sew him up and have a lawsuit after a invasion. I prefer to bury the matter (Literally) and get on with life

Wrong answer. We shoot to stop a threat. It just oftimes is the case that the threat stops only when the assailant expires.

If the forensics team can determine that you shot an assailant *after* they ceased to be a threat, you WILL be charged and you will likely go to jail. In the very least, the legal struggles you'll be fixin' to endure will drain your finances and bleed you dry.

Doing it correctly is the way to stop legal or civil actions after the fact.

Correct answer.

We choose a bullet that we believe is the most effective at causing an assailant to stop being a threat, and we conduct ourselves in accordance with the laws concerning the use of deadly force within our local jurisdiction.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Edited:

Thank you Rbernie for your veer thoughts. Most helpful.

 

[Airman193SOS]

Going back to the withdrawal of Black Talons from the market, this is the article from Mother Jones that pretty much sealed their fate in conjunction with the Long Island Railway massacre. The shootings also gave us Carolyn McCarthy as her husband was killed and her son critically injured.

You will note the usual errors and misrepresentations in the article. In fact, as near as I can tell this article gave birth to the "cop killer bullet" hysteria of the time.

More can be found on Black Talons here, including reference to the Mother Jones article.