Winchester 10mm 200gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics Gel

[JohnKSa]

I don't see how saying that 10mm 200gr @ 900fps is a suitable self-defense load implies that .357Mag 125gr @ 900fps is also suitable. To be clear, I'm not commenting either way on the suitability of 125gr @ 900fps for self-defense--just saying that it doesn't make sense to me to try to imply that a comment made about 200gr 10mm loadings must automatically apply to 125gr .357Mag loadings too.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I don't see how saying that 10mm 200gr @ 900fps is a suitable self-defense load implies that .357Mag 125gr @ 900fps is also suitable. To be clear, I'm not commenting either way on the suitability of 125gr @ 900fps for self-defense--just saying that it doesn't make sense to me to try to imply that a comment made about 200gr 10mm loadings must automatically apply to 125gr .357Mag loadings too.

On the contrary the energy of the 357 Mag load at 900 FPS would be only 63% of the energy of the 10 mm load. Energy is not the be all and end all of ballistic science, but it is responsible for providing the force which both expands the bullet and damages tissue. 1200 fps is the speed that would provide the 125 gr bullet with nearly equivalent muzzle energy. Since faster bullets tend to slow down more rapidly than slower bullets, you might want more like 1250-1300 fps at the muzzle for the 125 gr bullet to deliver the same energy out at 7 yards as the 200 gr/900 fps bullet does. These are not rigorous calculations, just top-of-the-head estimates.

 

[481]

On the contrary the energy of the 357 Mag load at 900 FPS would be only 63% of the energy of the 10 mm load. Energy is not the be all and end all of ballistic science, but it is responsible for providing the force which both expands the bullet and damages tissue. 1200 fps is the speed that would provide the 125 gr bullet with nearly equivalent muzzle energy. Since faster bullets tend to slow down more rapidly than slower bullets, you might want more like 1250-1300 fps at the muzzle for the 125 gr bullet to deliver the same energy out at 7 yards as the 200 gr/900 fps bullet does. These are not rigorous calculations, just top-of-the-head estimates.

Well said. Rigorous calculation also bears out the rounds tested by the OP would, according to the BRL Incapacitation Probability equations (Dziemian, AJ, US Army BRL Biophysics Division) which relates the energy expenditure that you correctly state to be ''responsible for providing the force which both expands the bullet and damages tissue'', produce respective incapacitation probabilities of 73.6% (test shot #1; 0.82'', 200 gr., 897 fps) and 74.2% (test shot #2; 0.84'', 200 gr., 912 fps).

 

[tipoc]

I dare say that Keith's police load was a 41 Special,
not that it matters

Keith invented the 41 Magnum. As you are likely aware there was no "41 Special" till recently (the last 15 years or so) when Mike Venturino and others thought that there ought to be. I'm not even sure there is a commercial load for that.

 

[JTQ]

So under that logic.....the .357 Mag 125gr LE/Personal Defense rounds should be running at about 901 fps as well???

I'm not sure what your intention is with this comment?

Perhaps the correlation that in .41 Magnum power ranges, the "hot" .41 Magnum rounds were used as hunting rounds, and the "lower power" "Police Load" used for LE/Personal Defense?

If so, I suspect one would need more power to stop a bear with a .41 Magnum than would be required to stop a human. Therefore, since there isn't much need for a 210gr round at 1,400fps to stop a human, and a 200gr round at 900fps would probably work just fine, for LE/Personal Defense they could use the lower powered round and have an effective, but more controllable gun.

Considering the topic of the thread, a 200gr 10mm at 900fps is probably just fine for stopping humans (LE/Personal Defense), whereas somebody using a 10mm to shoot deer or black bear may prefer a bit more velocity and a more robust bullet.

 

[fastbolt]

Do you want a hunting round or a personal defense round?

Remember when what became the 10mm Auto was originally envisioned as being an ideal alternative to the .45ACP, pushing a 200gr bullet at 1000fps? Then, Norma upped the velocity and the 10mm Norma resulted, leaving behind the original vision for the new round.

The .40 S&W actually holds to the original concept of the 10mm, but in a shorter case, allowing it to be sued in 9mm size frames. Both of these factors is why the .40 did so well as a LE round since its adoption in '90. Unfortunately, even as the guns were improved and better built to withstand a steady diet of the .40, not all shooters were necessarily "improved" at the same time. The 9mmP is easier for most shooters to control and use.

Of course, the route by which the .40 ended up seeing introduction was an interesting interlude, involving the combined efforts of S&W and Winchester when working with the FBI on a 10mm load somewhat closer to the original concept of the 10mm.

Personally, I rather wish the .41AE had managed to catch on. Not only could it be used to essentially duplicate the ballistics of the .41 Magnum Police load, but it was later found to be capable of seeing higher velocity loads. The rebated case may have prevented some of the major companies from wanting to seriously explore the fledgling caliber, but it would've made for some interesting caliber conversion options.

It's too bad the .41AE didn't get more backing from some of the major American gun and ammo companies, but the newer .40 S&W became the "winner" in that competition back then. If it had caught on, the .41AE might've eventually successfully occupied the niches of both the .40 S&W and the 10mm.

 

[Someguy.429421]

Keith invented the 41 Magnum. As you are likely aware there was no "41 Special" till recently (the last 15 years or so) when Mike Venturino and others thought that there ought to be. I'm not even sure there is a commercial load for that.

People have been tinkering with .40 and .41 special cartridges since at least 1927, as documented here in the screenshots below from Sixguns. In fact, the ballistics described here in this excerpt could be the true inspiration behind the 10mm auto and the .40 S&W, all the way back in 1955. I'm sure Jeff Cooper has read it.
It is true that commercial loads have not been around, but that does not mean that the cartridge and load doesn't exist.

 

[Someguy.429421]

I plan to replicate this load in the new 3" 10mm with the arsenal Keith .40 mold if I have to.
200gr @1000 for defense,
Same bullet @ 1200 for hunting pigs and deer and the like.

 

[Someguy.429421]

For what it's worth, Underwood offers a 200gr @1000fps in .40 S&W and 10mm 200gr @ 1250fps published velocity. The bullet is different, but it's basically the same short of casting that arsenal mold. I can't seem to find that bullet pre made anywhere in .40"

Somebody please send me a PM if they've got any leads

 

[tipoc]

Now it's true that the 41 Long Colt has been around for a long time, 1877 in fact and for a time there was a 41 Short Colt. Both were commercially manufactured and both were reloaded and you can find reference to them in old reloading manuals. Also true that folks tinkered with them. Also true that Keith spoke about his experiments and tinkering and possibly developing a round called the 41 Special. Only he did not do that and no one else did either until recently.

Keith in his letters (Gun Notes Vol. 1) discusses the new gun that S&W built after he had lobbied for it for a number of years called the 41 magnum. (S&W would make no gun called the 41 Special) Keith had pressed ammo makers and S&W for a new hotter load for the 44 Spl. but could not convince folks of it due to old guns being still in use, and especially after the 44 Magnum appeared. So he went with the 41 Magnum.

He wrote in Oct. of 1965 when examining and testing the ammo from Remington for the new gun:
"The jacket softpoint load goes a full 1500 fps from an 8 3/8" S&W revolver, while this lead bullet police load gives 1,050 fps from the same barrel. From 6" barrels..., the big load goes 1342 fps, and the lead bullet police load goes 986 fps."
He speculated that it would be slower from the 4" barrels.

There was no load for any 41 Special. My 43rd Edition of the Lyman reloading manual from 1964 (the same year S&W introduced the 41 Magnum) lists the 41 Long Colt but does not list any 41 Special nor the brand new, for then, 41 magnum.

I agree with you that folks have been looking at a 40 caliber/10mm rounds for a long while. But Starline only recently began making any brass for a 41 Special.

 

[Someguy.429421]

I suppose this is a philosophical point then. I would consider it to exist and to have existed from the point that the these cartridges, described as we know them, became manufactured, shot, and called it's name, even as a wildcat. Keith dates this as at least 1927, and we can say the 200gr@1200fps figure has been around since at least the publishing of Sixguns, 1955.


I will concede that specific firearms for this cartridge and the cartridge itself does not truly exist as a readily available, factory configured item that is of little extra expense compared to other readily available arms.

HOWEVER, a very quick Google search turned up a beautiful custom Smith by Hamilton Bowen that is tactfully rollmarked "41 Special CTG"

http://smith-wessonforum.com/139235240-post1.html

Sidenote: Have you ever heard of the .50 Special? It was invented by Hamilton Bowen, as far as I can tell, and he has produced several examples from redhawks. The figure is 325gr. @950fps, the cases trimmed .500 magnum.

 

[Someguy.429421]

In regards to barrel length as a variable in velocity, I'm just going to have to tweak it as best I can to work even in a 3 inch. Whether I can handle the load necessary to accomplish that is yet to be seen, but I am generally not recoil sensitive. I believe this is possible in 10mm with 800x powder and perhaps also 2400 and n105. Time will tell, and I will post my results here. Probably. Also I have to test out the Underwood loads to see how they perform. Probably good enough but ya know

 

[tipoc]

"HOWEVER, a very quick Google search turned up a beautiful custom Smith by Hamilton Bowen that is tactfully rollmarked "41 Special CTG""

Yes but this is a more recent development. Hamilton Bowen revived Keith's idea in the 1980s.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_ready_for_the_41_special_040711/99136#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Special

John Taffin and Venturino have been advocates of the concept and cases for it as well.

My only point being that the idea was kicking around for some time. Back over a century. The 41 Colt had been popular but had it's limitations and passed away. Keith introduced the 41 Magnum and named it that rather than just the 41 Remington in an effort to increase sales and marketing it as in between the .357 Mag and the 44 Mag. Had the 41 Mag really taken off a 41 Spl. may have been a reality sooner. But that didn't happen.

But there has been big strides forward.

There is commercial brass and bullets for it.

There is also commercial ammo for the 41 Spl.

https://shop.reedsammo.com/41-Special_c163.htm

http://www.ammo-one.com/41Special.html

https://www.venturamunitions.com/ventura-heritage-41-special-215gr-swc-ammo-50-rounds/

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/category/categoryId/4495

There is more as well. Still a super niche round but it officially exists!


tipoc

 

[Someguy.429421]

Only barely