Winchester 10mm 200gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics Gel

[5pins]

Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester 10MM 200gr Black Talon SXT.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Gel Temperature: 70 degrees.

I remember when Winchester made the decision to discontinue the Black Talon line because of political pressure by people who vilified the round and made it sound like the deadliest bullet ever invented. People like Democrat Patrick Moynihan who described it as a buzz saw ripping through you on TV. So Winchester decided the best course of action was to stop making it. Of course, they really didn’t stop making them, they just removed the black coating and renamed it. But before they were all gone I went to my favorite gun store, The White Elephant, to by a box.

The only caliber left was some 10MM. I didn’t own a 10MM and didn’t really have any desire to get one. Not that it really mattered, I just thought it would be cool to have some. Years later, last year, I picked up a used Colt Delta Elite.

The first round in bare gel had a velocity of 897fps it penetrated to 17 inches and expanded to .82 inches. Round two hit at 912fps with 16.25 inches of penetration and expanded to .84 inches.



In heavy clothing, the first round had a velocity of 944fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The expansion was uneven with only one side of the bullet extending outward to .70 inches. Round two went into the block at 992fps and penetrated to 17.75 inches. Like the first round, expansion was uneven at .65 inches.

 

[PlumRotten]

Nice write up and review....and man that is some weak 10mm.

 

[5pins]

Nice write up and review....and man that is some weak 10mm.

Yep, kind of missing the point of the 10mm.

 

[JTQ]

Nice write up and review....and man that is some weak 10mm.

Note the Black Talon was an LE/Personal Defense round, not a hunting round. Also note, as a point of reference, the original .41 Magnum "Police Load" was a 200 gr. bullet at 900 fps.

 

[496 polara]

Weak or not I wouldn't want to get hit with it.

I sold my Colt and Kimber 10mm guns a few years back and the 1000 or so rounds of different ammo.Some guy in Cali bought all the Norma 10mm I had.Kinda wish I had kept the ammo as the Ruger 1911 in 10mm is talking softly to me.
I did keep the two boxes of Black Talon in 10mm for my little Black Talon collection.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

It is a weak 10mm for sure, but would be plenty effective against a methed up jackass.

 

[RecoilRob]

That looks like the FBI reduced 10mm that they went to before the 40 S&W came on the scene. MUCH nicer to shoot than full boat loads and so long as the bullet is properly designed for the velocity it would work just fine.

 

[340PD]

That looks like the FBI reduced 10mm that they went to before the 40 S&W came on the scene. MUCH nicer to shoot than full boat loads and so long as the bullet is properly designed for the velocity it would work just fine.

The FBI backed off those full power 10mm rounds because their guys/gals could not handle them. In our municipal range from what I have seen, accuracy wise, the FBI doesn't put much fear in me, the Federal Sky Marshall's (.357 Sig) frighten the snot out of me.

 

[jmr40]

The vast majority of FBI agents are desk jockey's whose job entails sitting behind a desk doing research all day. Most of them will never be in a situation where the gun is ever needed. A minimum of shooting skills are required. A sky Marshal''s skills need to be among the very best since they may be required to make a precision shot in a plane full of passengers.

There are FBI teams who I'm sure are as good as anyone.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

The FBI backed off those full power 10mm rounds because their guys/gals could not handle them. In our municipal range from what I have seen, accuracy wise, the FBI doesn't put much fear in me, the Federal Sky Marshall's (.357 Sig) frighten the snot out of me.

Yep, the FSMs are serious in their training. I spoke with a former sky marshall a few years ago, we were in a store together in Jackson, WY. He told me, briefly, his history. We started off by talking about where we were both from, and the conversation evolved into his background. He told me he lived and worked in Colorado Springs, and that is the town I grew up in, so I think our conversation started with his Army service at Ft. Carson in Colorado Springs. He was an MP in the Army, and then he went into the Federal Sky Marshalls after his Army service. He told me they fired thousands and thousands of rounds in training. Thousands. I asked him what pistol they used and I think he said it was a Sig Sauer? I do know that he said they used .357sig ammo. I asked him about penetration in an airplane and he said that they were not concerned with over penetration or shooting in an airplane and then he explained the intense training they go through to be deadly accurate. He said of all his pistol training in his many years in the Army (and now his current position in security for another branch of the military) that his air marshall pistol training was the most intense.

Oh, and then I asked him what his favorite pistol is. He said he had (has) a Wilson Combat 1911 that he absolutely loves. He said he only could afford it because a friend of his had to get rid of it (probably due to a divorce situation, I'm guessing?) so he got it for a real good price, and this was after his friend had done some modifications to it to make it even better. I told him about my EDC, blah, blah, blah....

Anyhow, nice guy, it was a good conversation.

 

[tipoc]

A 200 gr. bullet at just over 900 fps is a perfectly good self defense round.

 

[JONWILL]

A 200 gr. bullet at just over 900 fps is a perfectly good self defense round.

It is and also very controllable. I like my 10mm hot, I load my 180 grain to around 1300 fps. A good hunting round but with the recoil it would be hard to get multiple shots off fast.

 

[Someguy.429421]

Note the Black Talon was an LE/Personal Defense round, not a hunting round. Also note, as a point of reference, the original .41 Magnum "Police Load" was a 200 gr. bullet at 900 fps.

I dare say that Keith's police load was a 41 Special,
not that it matters

 

[JTQ]

I dare say that Keith's police load was a 41 Special,
not that it matters

While it may have been his intention for it to be a .41 Special, a .41 Special "Police Load" was not produced by ammunition makers. However, when Remington did introduce the .41 Magnum, a "Police Load" version of the .41 Magnum was offered.

Edit to add: Boy this is an old one to have been dug up for a trivial tidbit.

 

[rpenmanparker]

The FBI backed off those full power 10mm rounds because their guys/gals could not handle them. In our municipal range from what I have seen, accuracy wise, the FBI doesn't put much fear in me, the Federal Sky Marshall's (.357 Sig) frighten the snot out of me.

Reported! Why, are you planning to hijack a plane? Just askin’.

 

[Someguy.429421]

While it may have been his intention for it to be a .41 Special, a .41 Special "Police Load" was not produced by ammunition makers. However, when Remington did introduce the .41 Magnum, a "Police Load" version of the .41 Magnum was offered.

Edit to add: Boy this is an old one to have been dug up for a trivial tidbit.

I hear that starline finally produces 41 special brass. It sure would be nice if that was a readily available factory round.

 

[Someguy.429421]

For what it's worth, lucky gunner and maybe ammunition to go, I don't remember, SOMEBODY, they did these gel tests on about all of the rounds they sell so you can browse the data as you're making your choice.

The Ranger T [new not black talon] was offered in 45acp and 45+p, and the +p round performed WORSE at higher speed. The regular loading was beautiful and opened up to over .80" I think.

Further, I don't think they make a 10mm offering in this load but they do make a .40S&W.

This all being said, I think it's safe to speculate that this is the reason the 10mm black talon seems so anemic, for the sake of optimal hollowpoint performance. Not because it sucks.

 

[Someguy.429421]

It seems results were better than I remembered

 

[horsemen61]

At that specs I’d just load it in 40 short and weak brass

 

[JR24]

Yikes, that's some weak 10mm.

It is and also very controllable. I like my 10mm hot, I load my 180 grain to around 1300 fps. A good hunting round but with the recoil it would be hard to get multiple shots off fast.

I do much thesame, but with 200 gr XTP at 1200.

Interestingly enough when I ran it against 230 grain hard ball in .45 (both from 5" 1911s) my splits were actually almost the same between hot 10mm and .45 ACP.

I certainly had to focus much harder to stay on target but it convinced me that if I wanted to put the work in those 10mm loads could be a perfectly servicable CCW load.

 

[Riomouse911]

I have a box of .40 S&W Black Talon still lurking on the shelf.

I’d rather use the new Ranger SXT rounds rather than the BT should I decide to shoot it on one of the .40’s. They’re pretty much the same stuff but the Ranger is much more recent production .

Stay safe!

 

[340PD]

Reported! Why, are you planning to hijack a plane? Just askin’.

I am an instructor at a Municipal range that is owned by three different local LE agencies and the Airport Commission. We get a wide variety of different government agencies in our range for training and qualifying. My observations from watching and gathering up the backer-boards, the FBI when qualifing, who currently are shooting .40cal, cannot hold a candle to the Sky Marshalls who train regularly with their Glocks or Sigs in .357sig.
Rather than reporting someone for explaining why the 10mm round was morphed into the S&W.40cal. for so many agencies, think before you jump to a ridiculous conclusion.

 

[TN Outlaw]

I am an instructor at a Municipal range that is owned by three different local LE agencies and the Airport Commission. We get a wide variety of different government agencies in our range for training and qualifying. My observations from watching and gathering up the backer-boards, the FBI when qualifing, who currently are shooting .40cal, cannot hold a candle to the Sky Marshalls who train regularly with their Glocks or Sigs in .357sig.
Rather than reporting someone for explaining why the 10mm round was morphed into the S&W.40cal. for so many agencies, think before you jump to a ridiculous conclusion.

Are you serious Clark?

 

[rpenmanparker]

I am an instructor at a Municipal range that is owned by three different local LE agencies and the Airport Commission. We get a wide variety of different government agencies in our range for training and qualifying. My observations from watching and gathering up the backer-boards, the FBI when qualifing, who currently are shooting .40cal, cannot hold a candle to the Sky Marshalls who train regularly with their Glocks or Sigs in .357sig.
Rather than reporting someone for explaining why the 10mm round was morphed into the S&W.40cal. for so many agencies, think before you jump to a ridiculous conclusion.

Oh, my. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. I apologize for a bad joke. It would have been okay I guess if I had used emojis, but I got lazy. I was just pulling your leg. No report. I was just reacting to you saying you were frightened of sky marshals. See how that works? I spend most of my forum time on one where that kind of banter is common and completely understood. Over there we say we have reported a double entendre post as a running gag. No one takes it seriously. I shouldn't have taken it for granted here.

EDIT: Wait a minute. I did use an emoji. No matter. The fault was still mine.

 

[PlumRotten]

Note the Black Talon was an LE/Personal Defense round, not a hunting round. Also note, as a point of reference, the original .41 Magnum "Police Load" was a 200 gr. bullet at 900 fps.

So under that logic.....the .357 Mag 125gr LE/Personal Defense rounds should be running at about 901 fps as well???