Good article on the new HK 45....

[strat81]

Until Jack Bauer uses it, I'm sitting this one out.

 

[hrgrisso]

Bashfest?

While I don't mean to pile on I do think a few points are red herrings at least...

Yes the Springfield XD is not DA/SA but neither is the Glock. Again these are all variations in the same field. The market needs them. But I think more than anything the frustration goes back to HK's marketing dept. like Correia pointed out, they overpromise everything.

As to trigger complaints etc. much of these are based off of comparisons in the original article which this thread is about, to the USP and P2000 family of pistols which many have great experience with. Sorry but the triggers, while usable, were nothing better than that.

Reliable guns? Absolutely. But not the END ALL that H und K (reference MHI blog) make them out to be. But no more reliable than a glock, at twice the price.

I do belive that everyone can choose their own gun and that's how it should be. While I enjoy shooting 1911's, I still don't carry one. I don't even have one for my nightstand gun. But when a company ignores the public because they THE GREATEST IN THE WORLD, it's hard not to find much contempt. No company is perfect. And we should all remember that.

oh and just to keep this comment on topic; ICE PIRATES...

 

[mpmarty]

I've got a SA XD45, my shooting buddy has an assortment of Hans Kraut pistols and my XD will out shoot any of his HKs regardless of which one of us is shooting which pistol. The HK is cumbersome, heavy, overpriced, poor ergonomics, lousy trigger, poor customer service and just not worth worrying about. Even my shooting buddy is giving up on them and going after Sigs and the FN45 when available, and some euro-gun with trapezoidal sights (he just has to be different). No, I've never wasted my money er I mean bought an HK but I've had to shoot some of them and was always underwhelmed. For crying out loud, on a fair day even my stinking three inch 45 carry gun will outshoot three inches at twenty five yards and it's a cheapo Taurus PT145 that I could buy four of at the cost of an HK. My Glock 21 shoots into the same three inches but it should, it is much larger with a longer barrel and longer sight radius. My Witness Elite Match will truly put ten rounds into one ragged hole at twenty five yards with 180gr factory fodder. Accuracy just isn't a criteria any longer in selecting a pistol. How well does it fit my hand and method(s) of carry? How heavy is it? How many rounds does it hold? How reliable is it? How good is the trigger? What's the price?:banghead:

 

[Hawk]

I'm so deficient in pop culture, I find that I learn a lot simply reading THR threads. There's something not quite right about that.

But today I learned of Ice Pirates, which had previously escaped my notice as well as Bloaty the Pizza Hog which appears connected to Invader.Zim, if my search-fu is strong this day.

Rather reminds me when one "Handy" introduced me to Napoleon Dynamite over at TFL. I believe the context was Masterpiece Arms but the exact connection escapes me.

So, which polymer pistol does Paris Hilton prefer?

 

[P. Plainsman]

I enjoyed Correia's linked article (post #16).

Can't help it. As an American private citizen, I confess to being somewhat biased against HK, a.k.a. "The official arms supplier to The Man."

Also, that pistol's grip looks really big.

 

[atomd]

I would like to enroll for the great 2007 HK Bashfest please! Sunday Sunday Sunday! You'll pay for the entire seat......But you'll only need the edge! Sounds like a good time to me!

 

[Hawk]

At least one member here has adopted this as a sig line:

they (XM8) were almost adopted by the military.

Only if you define "almost" as "never, ever, in a million years, no, not only no, hell no, HK can go to hell, go to hell and DIE!"

I would have done the same but I hate being too derivitive.

 

[Ethereal]

Correia, I read your article also and thought it was a good read. Hopefully more will take actual experience in choosing who gets their support and the fan boys can calm down a little. For HK fans though it still is something to be excited about (for no other reason than it's another HK). I'm not saying that it's better or worse than anyone else's gun, we all have our preferences. Lets try not to de-rail this thread away from its intended purpose: info on the HK45/the official THR Ice Pirates club thread.

 

[Choclabman]

I own 5 HK pistols(USP .40F, USPc .40, P2000 .40, P2SK .40, P30), two Glocks(G17, G30) and three Sig's(P229 .40, P226 .40 and P220).

I despise the grip angle of the Glocks. But they were both presents over the years, and will not be sold.

I use the HK's for CCW, night stand, IDPA, and USPSA.

The reason's, I prefer HK.
1. I am more accurate the HK's.
2. I have found my HK's, to be more reliable with all makes of ball and HP ammo.
3. I prefer the ergonomics.
4. I prefer the magazine release on HK pistols.
I am also faster with the HK mag release, than my other pistols. A simple downward swipe of the trigger finger, and the magazine is out, new magazine in. The pistol is left extened, does not have to be twisted, as a pistol with a thumb operated magazine release. For me, this is more natural, and I am faster with my reloads. The timer, does not lie.
5. HK customer service has done a 180, and is great.

Price?
On the local market, a USP is only around $125 more than Glock. Not what I would call, expensive by any stretch of the imagination.
I also always thought that price, should never be a concern in a SD pistol. If a person is more comfortable with a 2k Wilson Combat CQB, then that is the direction they need to go.

I like and prefer HK pistols. Some do not. Life goes on.
It comes down to personal preference. I love and own several 1911's. There are people, who do not like them, and that is fine.

HK Rifles?
I do own a HK91, but do not care about HK rifles. My DSA FAL's, make me very happy.


Back on Topic.
That was a great read. Thanks for the link.
Will I buy a HK45? No. It offers nothing I want.

 

[boomstik45]

I like HKs. Outside of the LEM, I am not impressed with their triggers. Even the LEM trigger has a lot of "empty space" takeup.

Worth more that much more than XDs, Sigs, Glocks, Czs, M&Ps? Not to me.

 

[bigred82]

Actually the HK45 was the handgun that I was originally going to go with as my main HD weapon... back when it was supposed to come out in April... or was that May?... or June?.... August?..... October?...... yeah forget it.... when hell freezes.

I've since moved on as have many others. When you've got choices like the XD45, G21sf, SIG P220, USP45, Affordable 1911s like SA and DW, and most recently and what will probably have the biggest impact on the upcoming disappointing sales figures for the HK45 - the Smith and Wesson M&P45.

The M&P45 will have any mag drop bugs - and any other issues - completely worked out before the HK45 is even on the market (if not resolved already). Less than a $50 trigger mod makes the M&P triggers super nice, and the M&P45 has all the same features of the HK45 at a significantly lower price.

With the increasing cost of all ammunition - especially .45acp - I am sure that more and more people will be buying .40sw and 9mm.

HK sells a name and an idea. Not to be too anti-HK - hell I own one, but they are not the same company that came out with the revolutionary P9s or P7 series. Those were good handguns. The P2000 series is moving in the right direction, and the HK45compact may indeed turn out to be a good pistol (since it is basically a P2000 in .45), but the HK45 looks like the solution to a problem that didn't exist except for HK. The USP is a blocky giant of a gun (hence why they finally changed the grip after a decade of complaints). I've shot both the MK23 and the USP45 Tactical - both of which have much better triggers than the USP - and I still was not impressed. To think that you could have a Springfield Pro for the same price as the Mk23 - I could never see myself buying the HK. It cracks me up when HK elitists call glocks "blocks" - just like the pot calling the kettle black. The USP grip is horrendous unless you have gorilla hands. Now they have resolved that with the HK45. One can only hope that they have improved the trigger as well, but from reading between the lines on what Vickers said about it - he's less than impressed with the execution of some of the things on it as well. My P2000 has about an 11.5-12lbs DA trigger pull. uhhg. HKs probably do cost more- not because the guns actually cost more to make, but because of the German taxes and the amount that they have to pay their German workers with all of their social benefits.

But still, there is absolutely no reason why I should spend $300 more on something that is more blocky, has a higher bore axis, has the funky european mag release, will probably have a worse trigger, and will definitely have fewer after market options than what I can get from the low-priced, American made M&P45 which is backed by a company with one of the best customer service ratings in the handgun community.

(I don't work for S&W, nor do I own the M&P45, but I have shot a rental on many occasions and am impressed with it every time.)

 

[TL1234]

As far as all of the other polymer guns being 500, thats not the case either. If you want a new 100% german made P99 its gonna run you around $800. Some people poo poo the difference between a S&W P99 and a german one, but its there and noticable.

I call BS on that. My Walther (NOT an SW99) was around 550, brand new, NOT on sale. And they can be found for cheaper than that, I just wasn't patient enough to wait for an online deal.

I agree that HKs are better than most other polymer guns for a variety of reasons, but whether or not they are worth the extra cash is questionable. I have found many good deals on used HK pistols, but I don't think it is worth the cash for a new one in most cases.

 

[nwilliams]

The HK45 is going to retail for $1200!

I missed that! I was figuring it would sell for the price of a P2000 or something, in the $750 neighborhood. Still that's more than I would spend on just about any handgun, my price range rarely exceeds $500 which is why I buy a lot of used ones.

For example I got my USP Tactical for $600 almost brand new That to me is a reasonable price to pay and I love the gun. Would I have paid full retail price for it, NO WAY! IMO its not a $1K gun it just has that coolness factor so they jack the price up on them.

If you're wondering why I paid so little for it, I bought it off a friend of mine who needed money fast and needed to get rid of pretty much his entire gun collection. If was a sad set of circumstances, but at least most of those guns went to a good home....mine! Wow, that must have been four years ago by now, maybe I should replace the o-ring on that barrel

 

[jeepmor]

Its one thing if you don't like the pistol but lets try and be somewhat impartial here.

I suppose there is a government contract somewhere that will pay that full price, being our .gov's are spending our money, not theirs. Obviously, HK is well aware of this fact.

 

[Choclabman]

Bigred,

I hope you have great luck with the M&P45. It shows great promise
The M&P .40 I owned, suffered from mag release under recoil. A very well known M&P problem. Two trips back to S&W, did not fix the problem. I sold it.

A 686P(7-shot) I owned, would do a complete lock-up if I used anything other than 125gr ammo. The "flag" could clearly be seen in the hole. To disengage, the IL had to be turned all the way on, then all the way off.
S&W replaced the spring, but my confidence in the IL was/is gone. It was sold.

Out of all the firearms I have owned, and do own, these are the only two that have given me any trouble. S&W is not for me. Another person may have nothing but great luck with their products.

Good Luck, with the M&P45

 

[Correia]

Wow, I'm getting a ton of hits off of the HK rant on my blog. Apparently I'm not alone.

 

[boomstik45]

You most certainly aren't.

 

[SoCalShooter]

I have an HK. it works fine. Shoots fine and is expensive for a plasty gun.

 

[STAGE 2]

I call BS on that. My Walther (NOT an SW99) was around 550, brand new, NOT on sale. And they can be found for cheaper than that, I just wasn't patient enough to wait for an online deal.

But the question is whether your walther is 100% german made. Does it have the proof marks and stampings. My guess is it isn't.


As for the rest of the HkATERS out there, heres some food for thought. I buy guns for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes its for collecting, sometimes its for plinking, and sometimes its for duty. When I'm purchasing for the latter, price is usually my last concern. My first questions are 1) is it reliable, 2) is it accurate, 3) does it shoot well.

I don't ever sit there and ask "does it break the mold", or "is it revolutionary". All I want to know is whether its really good at sending small projectiles where I want them to go and does it fit my various criteria.

So with that said, I have to ask the question (granted this is speculation since no one here has shot one, much less held one), if the HK cost the same as (insert your favorite tupperware gun here) would you buy it. If no, then thats fine. There's either something you really don't like about it, or something you really like about Brand X.

If the answer is yes however (and I think judging by some of these posts if you are being truthful, this is the case) then the HK is really good at what it does. And judging by how successful HK has been, I'd venture that there are plenty of people willing to pay for what they do (boring reliability and extreme accuracy) even though the sticker is more than most.

And since we are all having a kum-bye-ya moment of truthfullness here, it really could be the case that this new HK is the most comfortable, softest shooting .45 ever built. It could also suck. Who really knows. I certianly don't. But the people who are giving the "it doesn't do anything for me" line don't either. That doesn't exactly reek of impartiality.

 

[30 cal slob]

First I don't think there's much (or any) room to fart on reliability between HK's and Sigs.

I respectfully disagree. I had a particularly harrowing experience with a European-made Sig P228 (FTF with defense ammo in an actual defensive situation).

2. I have found my HK's, to be more reliable with all makes of ball and HP ammo.

I agree.

And I agree with just about everything Correia has said about HK’s business practices. HK makes a great product, but has lousy civilian marketing and pricing. Part of it is the weak dollar, but I’ll bet a lot of this is driven by the current owners (damn private equity guys).

“HK. Because You Suck. And We Hate You.”

 

[Correia]

Well, my blog got linked over to HKpro. Somebody said that my post was because of envy, because I couldn't afford HK. I'm not a rich man by any means, but I do own an NFA gun store. Accumulating guns is what I do for a living.

 

[Hawk]

So with that said, I have to ask the question (granted this is speculation since no one here has shot one, much less held one), if the HK cost the same as (insert your favorite tupperware gun here) would you buy it. If no, then thats fine. There's either something you really don't like about it, or something you really like about Brand X.

Clearly, we STI polymer fanboys must be a small lot. HK raising their prices to STI levels would certainly not make it more attractive, but one realizes that was not the spirit of the question.

Based on the pictures, the thing looks huge. But appraising ergos from a photo is a dicey proposition at best.

However, the trigger is defined by actual numbers in the article as well as subjective observations and, based on that, the trigger bites the big one compared to STI's SAO. (assuming one likes SAO)

So, compared to the late <sniff> VIP or current TAC 4.15 (sans magwell) or 5.0 the HK would appear to have a bar-nasty trigger, less capacity, larger grip and present more challenges to concealed carry. My personal estimation is that the STI is worth the extra 800.00 or so. The STI lacks the panache of being made in Germany. My wild guess is the HK is easier to take down if one misplaces the gadget that STI provides. Also, the STI may not be sufficiently polymer to qualify as tupperware but I'm uncertain on this count - there's plenty of plastic despite the metal rails.

How 'bout it Correia? You've seen the TAC 4.15 next to a USP, does the former have enough plastic to count as a polymer gun?

 

[Correia]

Well, I own a Tac 4.15, but I don't own any HK pistols (anymore). Plastic wise, it is a hard call. The STI has a plastic grip, but the whole top of the frame is still metal. I tend to think of it as a regular gun.

 

[modifiedbrowning]

But the question is whether your walther is 100% german made. Does it have the proof marks and stampings.

Except for a small run of .40 slides that S&W made years ago, all P99s are completely German made.
I can buy a P99 for $550 or less and it is certainly the equal of an $800 HK.

 

[Hawk]

I tend to think of it as a regular gun.

Banished I am, from the polymer gun threads.

I guess the HK goes back to being high priced.