Before you decide to rely on Santa Barbara 380 you should look at this thread........
http://www.thektog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1137003479/15
http://www.thektog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1137003479/15
Good hot .380 ball ammo
- Thread starter Frozen North
- Start date
- Status
dogtown tom
Member
So.........there's variation in ammo?
Whoodathunkit?I'll take 1983 Santa Barbara over WWB any day of the week.
Out of the 1,000+ rounds of SB that I've run through several .380's I've yet to have a single round fail to feed, fire, extract or eject. NONE showed any of the "problems" reported in that five year old KTOG thread . That's more than I can say for some supposed "premium" brands of ammunition.
I'm happily hoarding my remaining Santa Barbara.
Well I shot up all of mine year or two ago and good riddance. Who needs to have to inspect and wipe down every round before shooting it.So.........there's variation in ammo?
I'll take 1983 Santa Barbara over WWB any day of the week.
Out of the 1,000+ rounds of SB that I've run through several .380's I've yet to have a single round fail to feed, fire, extract or eject. NONE showed any of the "problems" reported in that five year old KTOG thread . That's more than I can say for some supposed "premium" brands of ammunition.
I'm happily hoarding my remaining Santa Barbara.
I had plenty of feeding issues with it unless I cleaned the casings before I used it.
dogtown tom
Member
No kidding?
Was it still in the little white & tan boxes or loose?
Maybe you got a supply of SB that was stored improperly or a reject lot.
All the Santa Barbara I've ever had was absolutely sparkling clean.
If your going with FMJ for your .380 I doubt it matters much what you get.
I really don't think you need to buy any pricey custom ammo for it, any quality ammo maker sending a bullet 900 + fps will get the same results. The ONLY thing I could think of is to find flat point bullets and not round nose.
I saw a test using clay, shooting a number of different calibers, alas no .380 BUT a little .32 acp flat point was tested and it zipped right though ~ 12 inches of clay and kept going. There was a .32 cal hole right though the clay, just as you would expect.
The HP 9mm, .40 AND a 180 grain .44 mag HP did NOT fully penetrate identical clay blocks. There was, however a big gaping hole in the clay. The .44 almost turned the clay block into a dome with bullet fragments all over the inside.
Interesting to see from a power perspective but of course it really doesn't say much about a combat situation.
I really don't think you need to buy any pricey custom ammo for it, any quality ammo maker sending a bullet 900 + fps will get the same results. The ONLY thing I could think of is to find flat point bullets and not round nose.
I saw a test using clay, shooting a number of different calibers, alas no .380 BUT a little .32 acp flat point was tested and it zipped right though ~ 12 inches of clay and kept going. There was a .32 cal hole right though the clay, just as you would expect.
The HP 9mm, .40 AND a 180 grain .44 mag HP did NOT fully penetrate identical clay blocks. There was, however a big gaping hole in the clay. The .44 almost turned the clay block into a dome with bullet fragments all over the inside.
Interesting to see from a power perspective but of course it really doesn't say much about a combat situation.
Yes it was boxed and looked very, very old with corrosion on most rounds. It was ok for the range but I would have never used it for self defense.
Frozen North
Member
Bingo!
Barrier-water jug-water jug, .380 jhp does fine, but if you do water jug-barrier-water jug, you will the bullet nicely opened and stuck in the barrier with no damage to jug 2. FMJ will zing right through a jug, 3 layers of parka and be found in the bottom of the second jug. If it cant shoot through an arm and still enter center of mass, I don't want it.
For the record, 9mm of just about any flavor will blow right through jug one, the barrier, and usually exit jug 2. This is why my primary is a Glock 26.
Thanks for the help guys.... looks like I have some shootin to do!
I am gonna check out lawman and remington express first because they are both available locally.
The gelatin tests done at Goldenloki did indeed show that most standard 380 fmj will penetrate at least 17" of calibrated ballistic gelatin so I think you are right that it doesn't really make much difference what brand you use as long as it is reliable in your pistol.
The tests results can be seen at……..
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm
The tests results can be seen at……..
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm
MikeNice
Member
Just use Winchester USA 95gr flat point. It will penetrate over 17" in most tests. Plus it is a lot cheaper than Buffalo Bore.
Yes by far this is the hottest 380 I have shot as well, I still see it now and then at gun shows and I have a dozen or so boxes left. It causes trigger slap in my LCP.
That said I do not agree with the OP and have no problems with 380 HP's, I prefer the heavyweights, the Remington GS in 102 grain after seeing some testing that showed it had plenty of penetration and expansion.
I have shot 1000 rounds of this stuff through many different 380's, there was some variance but nothing unusual and wipe it down
Not in any of the batches I have seen. This - All of the cases I have seen have been just fine, you must have hit on a poorly stored case or something. Even the SB I bought last year at a gunshow looked like brand new ammo.
71Commander
Member
I handload but if I didn't, I'd use the Buffalo Bore.
I'm getting 900 fps using 102 GS out of a Kahr P380 or Sig 239.
I'm getting 900 fps using 102 GS out of a Kahr P380 or Sig 239.
BADUNAME37
Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2008
- Messages
- 4,434
Go to walleyworld and get the Winchester 100-pack of ball ammo. It has a flat nose on front which should help (some).
It seems plenty powerful to me, however, I honestly have never chronied it!
It seems plenty powerful to me, however, I honestly have never chronied it!
IMO, and it's nothing more than opinion, it's more important to find ammo for a miniature semiauto such as the LCP, Keltec, Taurus, etc, that feeds, fires, and ejects as reliably as possible than to find a bullet that expands well in gelatin. A minimum SD caliber like .380 is borderline at best IMO and reliability of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc, shots is more important than whether it's ball of HP ammo. Having said that, in summer I carry a Keltek P3AT with whatever brand of FMJ ammo I happen to have on hand, and right now it's Federal. That's because I had 2 stovepipes in the first magazine of Hydroshoks I tried but have had no functioning problems at all with several hundred rounds of FMJ of various brands plus some of my RNL handloads I used to break in the little gun. I'm now reasonably confident that it will function reliably if it's ever needed in a SD situation, and I believe my ability, or lack of same, to place shots in vital areas of a BG's anatomy while under severe stress would have more affect on the outcome than whether I fired fmj or hollowpoints.
Totally backwards thinking in my opinion. Heavy clothing is more likely to plug the HP and make it act like a FMJ or delay expansion and cause greater penetration.
I don't know why people assume the opposite. BUT, if you feel more comfortable with the solid bullets I think the Buffalo Bore LFP non-+ps look like a winner. Personally, I prefer the Federal Hydrashoks. There penetrate well for the caliber and Hydrashoks are know to perform poorly (fail to expand) vs heavy clothing which is a bonus with the 380.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm
In the end I always say, the more you worry about marksmanship the less you will worry about what bullet you carry.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Are either of those figures from actual guns? The pocket pistols in this caliber that are so popular typically have two inches or less of actual rifled bore. Having said that, the Internet forum scuttlebutt indicates that European-manufactured .380 (e.g., Fiocchi, Sellier & Bellot) is typically loaded hotter than U.S.-made "generic." For about the cost of six boxes of ammo you can get a serviceable chronograph.
Frozen North
Member
Sounds like a bunch of "what if's" to me. If an FMJ is designed not to expand and offer maximum penetration, why would I select JHP ammo that is designed to expand and "hope" it malfunctions somehow? In my testing of the various JHP ammo, expansion was dismal and unreliable. If results are dismal and unreliable, why even bother with it.
This is some stuff I have shot in the past few months.
Left to right (I think, I never labeled them)... Two gold dots, 2 Hornady CD, 2 Winchester Ranger T rounds, and 2 generic ball rounds of some type. The bullet on the bottom is a 9mm Luger Winchester Ranger T 127 +p+ fired through my G26. When I compare the expansion from all .380 rounds to the 9mm round, it makes me wonder why I would even bother with JHP ammo in a .380. I can make those nasty looking mushrooms with 100% reliability in my 9mm all day, half of the .380 stuff didn't even open at all.
I can always count on .380 ball to cycle and penetrate effectively. For me, it is a no brainer.
Now I put the 95 grain Ranger T .380 next to the 127 grain Ranger T 9mm Luger
Winchester's own info says that pathetic mushroom will only penetrate 7.65 inches in bare gelatin compared to the impressive mushroom next to it that should penetrate 12.3 inches. Why shoot myself in the foot by using ammo that won't penetrate OR expand reliably? I may not be able to get expansion with .380 FMJ, but I can at least get reliable and adequate penetration.
I just scrunched my arm up in front of my chest and measured it, my bicep is nearly 6'' thick. That would be best case scenario for shooting through an arm. Now I want you to go stand in front of a mirror and posture yourself like you are holding a pistol. How much of your center of mass is covered by arm now? They are nearly ARMor if you are shooting a pistol that will only shoot through less than 8'' of flesh. You have some pretty thick bones in there too by the way....
I always thought it was a very bad idea to count on "winging" or "knee capping" your attacker. FMJ in .380 should reliably get to organs, .380 in JHP is a question mark. It's that simple for me. I feel I need that 12'' to be confident in my weapon.
Last edited:
Yahtzee4U
Member
Well said. People rag on the info that the so-called youtube warriors post using denim and water jugs, but It seems like a pretty simple, accurate, and reliable test to me. Denim equals clothes, and water is the majority of whats in us, I mean you could throw some liver in the water jugs to emulate organs... (Ha!) but I have yet to see (other than corbons barnes DPX) a 380 JHP expand reliably time after time using these tests. SO I would agree with Frozen North, why spend 25 bucks for 20 rounds, buy ball and practice marksmanship.
Its ALL "what ifs". I mean you have already fired a few bullets into whatever medium you fired them into and you have already formed your opinion. So why ask in the first place? You asked for opinions and you got some. For the most part you are much better served by spending more time on marksmanship and much less time on catching bullets and debating what type of bullet you are going to use. Most guys who worry that much about what bullet they are going to use worry because know they may not be able to put them where thy count so they was some magic bullet that is going to do the job no matter where they put it. I have no fears about whatever load I carry in my 380 because I know I can shoot my Bodyguard 380 very quickly and accurately so whatever bullet I use is likely to do the job. If you think the 380 is so underpowered then perhaps you should work on your shooting or switch to another caliber. But of course then you are right back where you started because you need to gain proficiency with that one too.
BTW, I had missed your earlier post about the water jug/barrier/water theory and I would say that is pretty sound thinking and I agree with it. I may even switch to LFPs in my bodyguard. If I was you I would just pick a FMJ and go practice. The difference from on FMJ to another is going to be no comparison to shot placement. Personally I would still sway much further toward the JHPs or FPs just because the wound created by those bullets is more damaging then regular round FMJs.
BTW, I had missed your earlier post about the water jug/barrier/water theory and I would say that is pretty sound thinking and I agree with it. I may even switch to LFPs in my bodyguard. If I was you I would just pick a FMJ and go practice. The difference from on FMJ to another is going to be no comparison to shot placement. Personally I would still sway much further toward the JHPs or FPs just because the wound created by those bullets is more damaging then regular round FMJs.
Frozen North
Member
I made it very clear in my original post that I was looking for recommendations on good hot ball ammo. I am just defending my position at this point.
I can hit an 18'' target reliably at 50 yards with this pistol and I shoot about 100 rounds a week at "Ballistic Bob" in my back yard. Proficiency with the pistol is covered.
I also said in the OP that my primary carry is a Glock 26. I shoot this one allot and am very proficient with it also.
It seems that .25, .32, and .380 autos get allot of hate from allot of shooters. I am not one of them. The "lesser" calibers have their place in the grand scheme too. I was just looking for some hot ball ammo for one.
Thanks for all the help everyone. I got all the answers I was looking for.
481
Member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2009
- Messages
- 2,424
I agree.
Water testing is actually a pretty decent test method (the method is described in detail in Duncan MacPherson's book, Bullet Penetration) if you don't have the time and money to invest in calibrated ordnance gelatin testing. It offers an "apples to apples" comparison (terminal behavior in the same medium) of one or more bullets and although water testing can produce a slight "overstatement" of terminal expansion of a round the effect is similar across the board for all rounds tested.
If a .380 (or any other caliber) JHP won't expand under the optimal conditions produced in water testing, then it is unrealistic to expect that it will expand when it encounters human tissues.
For the .380, FMJ is likely the best choice for the most likely scenarios.
Lawdawg45
Member
"It seems that .25, .32, and .380 autos get allot of hate from allot of shooters. I am not one of them. The "lesser" calibers have their place in the grand scheme too."
I'll share this story to show that nothing is etched in stone. 2 years ago my son (a LEO) had to defend himself against a murderous attacker and he fired 5 times at almost point blank range with his Glock .40 (using Federal JHP's) and the suspect was still fighting for several minutes after being shot. Several weeks before that incident he had been dispatched to a homicide where a neighborhood dispute became deadly, the man shot his neighbor 2 times with a .25 auto at 15 yards and dropped him like a sack of hammers.
To me, the lesson is practice with what you're going to carry and use the most effective ammo you can afford.
LD45
I'll share this story to show that nothing is etched in stone. 2 years ago my son (a LEO) had to defend himself against a murderous attacker and he fired 5 times at almost point blank range with his Glock .40 (using Federal JHP's) and the suspect was still fighting for several minutes after being shot. Several weeks before that incident he had been dispatched to a homicide where a neighborhood dispute became deadly, the man shot his neighbor 2 times with a .25 auto at 15 yards and dropped him like a sack of hammers.
To me, the lesson is practice with what you're going to carry and use the most effective ammo you can afford.
LD45
Frozen North
Member
I would say that this is the best advice for anyone.... But I would like to add... Don't listen to the internet tactical mall operator ninjas!
I get it now. I don't mean to come off as argumentative especially to a fellow Minnesotan but that is the way I learn I guess. Also, my comment was not meant to imply you don't know how to shoot but rather I believe the more faith a person has in their ability with the weapon the less they depend on what type of bullet they fire. Typically these types of threads are started by people whose time could be spent much better practicing shooting than debating ballistics. In your case I think you are just being prudent about your choices. I know a lot of people choose the WWB FMJ 380 because of its flat point but to me it is pretty underpowered in what is already a marginal caliber. I do like the flat points over the rounded FMJs for a variety of reasons. My suggestions for JHPs wasn't aimed at the idea they are better because the expand but the fact that many DON'T. A JHP that doesn't expand will act for all purposes like a flat point FMJ except it will have a sharper edge that may reduce deflection off bone like the skull. If you tested and found a good velocity JHP that didn't expand you may have just the round you are looking for. Personally, I like the Hydrashoks as my favorite 380 load. Under ideal conditions, expanding in bare gelatin, they still penetrate 12 inches in tests. Due to their post in the JHP and the rather small opening they tend to get plugged up and will likely not expand and penetrate even better. So with the HS you still get the benefit of a flat point FMJ that will likely be more damaging than a FMJ, will likely penetrate better than other JHPs, and still has the velocity of premium defensive ammo in the 380. If I can't buy the HS I may settle for the Gold Dots as my second choice but I do believe the Buffalo Bore 100gr LFP would probably be the best of the caliber.
Last edited:
Bingo! I might add that water is also a constant. If you do a test using water someone else can make a direct correlation to their own water tests. On the "backyard ballistic" test I've done I prefer wet pack. While water kind of represents ideal conditions the wetpack does plug up some HPs. Wetpack varies in preparation though so I only use the comparison of bullets shot into that same wetpack because other results might no be analagous due to differences in preparation of the wetpack.
- Status
Similar threads
