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Good News: Defense bill has 1911's transferring to the CMP

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Tirod, Nov 20, 2017.

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  1. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    http://www.guns.com/2017/11/20/cong...t-includes-selling-milsurp-1911s-through-cmp/

    Don't call them just yet. They will let us know the details. Get your qualifications in order, tho.

    As a reminder, these are the 100,000 pistols left in Government inventory being warehoused at the CMP which survived Bill Clinton. He had hundreds of thousands of others destroyed during an interim period when no organization replaced the old DCM. Bill Clinton is also the reason so few M14's remain, he had those largely destroyed, too. (Being capable of full auto very problematic if we ever see them sold.)

    Weapons will be be serviced, repaired if necessary, graded, and the best auctioned off. I don't expect any Trench grade as armorer's etc had their chance to send those in back then.

    As the expression in some circles is said, get ready for the winning.
     
  2. Hacker15E

    Hacker15E Member

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    Looking forward to it bigly, as they say.
     
  3. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    Hope this happens soon.:) I already own several new civilian 1911 pistols and if the price is within reason I might purchase one. But to have a "war relic" that costs 2 or more times what a new production one costs, not sure if I will find this worthwhile.:scrutiny:
     
  4. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    I am not holding my breath. Even the best in the unit armories that I saw in the early 1980's were pretty sad and had definitely seen better days. If you want one for nostalgic reasons then have at it, but I don't see myself ordering one.
     
  5. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    I fail to see what the excitement is about. The CMP will sell these at market prices, which are quite high for GI .45's. There's no shortage of GI .45's on the market, if you are willing to pay the prices. So whether you buy the gun from the CMP or a private seller, what's difference? You're not going to get a bargain from the CMP.

    Another 100,000 guns dropped on the market won't be enough to move prices significantly downward. Especially if the CMP sits on them if they don't sell at the originally-determined prices.

    The other factor is that the CMP will sort these prior to putting them on sale, so it will be impossible for rarities to slip through the cracks. No chance of getting a Singer through the luck of the draw.

    The general condition of these worn-out guns won't be great.
     
  6. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    GI pistols are not common around here. Saw maybe 3 at the last big gun show. 1200-2700$ asking prices.
    My LGS had 2 in last year (I'm there every day). They were a relative bargain at $900 and $1000 and were only on the shelf for a day or two.
    So, I think, at around a grand, they will sell well. I'll be saving my pennies......:)
     
  7. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    It's definitely a collector's gun, plenty of 1911 "hot rods" are on the market for half the price these will sell for. My comment about going to auction is relevant to the Garands still available. Instead of simply mixing in the rare variations or mint guns that came in, the CMP separates those and posts them for competitive bidding. In that regard, they participate in the dynamics of free enterprise. They sell for about the same prices as those same guns if they were put on a gun auction board.

    There won't be "bargains," as some of us may have originally hoped for. I expect the lower priced guns to be rack grade at best, having gone thru at least one if not two of the three arsenal rebuilds this fleet of weapons went thru. Parts may well be a mix of sources, with largely Remington and Ithaca slides as they made the majority of them during WWII. Military issue configuration, which means not suitable for hollow point use, field grade issue sights, wear from lanyard use, etc. They will largely be patinated from field carry with pits and surfaces arsenal refinished.

    Now, who would want to spend basically the price of a new gun for one that has been abused for over 60 years off and on with the scars to prove it? I can predict far more than 100,000.
     
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  8. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    I was a military policeman for a number of years in the late 60's and early 70's. Nearly every 1911 I carried was so worn that it sounded like a metal bucket full of bolts when I would shake them. The slop in the slide to frame was unbelievable. Once at the range in Germany I could only put about half of the rounds fired on the standard bull target at 25 yds. I was missing the entire target, not just the bullseye. I'm not the best pistol marksman but I'm definitely not the worst and I shoot the 1911 better than most other pistols. A fellow NCO was watching and offered me one of his privately owned 1911's he had brought to the range. I shot a magazine at the same bull with none of the rounds outside the 8 ring. He took my issue 1911 and held it by the slide with his thumb on the barrel and moved the barrel back and forth. There was so much movement that it was a wonder I could even hit the ground with it. Add in that slop and the worn slide/frame fit the pistol made a better hammer than a firearm. I don't think most of the pistols I carried in the army were repairable.
     
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  9. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    If anyone wants proof of how these guns will sell all you have to do is look at the condition of the USMC Colts guns that were recently auctioned off on GB. Those guns sold fast and started at around $1400 IIRC. In the second auction the price was raised several hundred dollars and those sold just as fast. Some of those guns were abused and in extremely poor condition. Didn't matter, the market was there.

    Granted there were only a few thousand of them but you can buy the same gun new without the USMC roll mark for about the same price. These guns had been in service and had a cert from Colt which is what people were paying for evidently. Some buyers even claimed that they would be the last of the gov't owned 1911's to hit the market. I guess they were wrong.

    If the release to the CMP actually happens I suspect that the appreciation will probably be about the same as the CMP carbines. It won't be much right away but when they are all sold the prices will start creeping up just like the carbines are now.

    You also have to remember that these aren't being sold on GB or at Cabela's. Not everyone is going to be able to buy one and the CMP will probably limit your purchase to one or two a year.

    I'm not sure I'll be a buyer but I'll have the money in the sock drawer just in case. :D
     
  10. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Great news, if it comes to pass.... The CMP sells these items to fund its marksmanship programs so everyone will win if it happens.

    I'm not a collector in any sense of the word so I'll just be watching. I do remember having to work hard just to hit the target with good quality Colts back in the late sixties when I briefly shot with my installation's pistol team. We each were allowed to draw a box of pistols and the .45's were quality target models -not issued weapons - and they were still tough to shoot with from my experience. Years later in police work I learned a lot of different techniques with handguns and greatly improved my skills - but those first .45's, shooting one handed, were quite the challenge for that young'un back then.
     
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  11. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    The CMP is a far cry from the original DCM. The old DCM had the mission of selling off surplus U.S. firearms, basically at the original government cost (not at current market value). I'm old enough to remember that in the late 1950's / early 1960's, M1911's, M1 carbines, Springfields and Enfields -- many in unissued condition -- were available from the DCM for ridiculously low prices (even less than $25). The main condition was that the buyer had to be an NRA member. This was a huge recruiting tool for the NRA.

    A truly pro-gun Administration could sponsor legislation to change the CMP charter, so that it could sell guns at cost, rather than at inflated market value. This would be a huge boon for the gun buyers, although the commercial gun makers and distributors would hate it.
     
  12. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

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    The 10,000 per year allotment will sell out quickly. They will sell out in a matter of days, if not hours. I'm pretty sure they have a government mandate to sell at the market price, and it would be foolish for them to sell the guns for less.

    The CMP funds are used to promote marksmanship and carry out their mission. They'll need all the money they can get because eventually the supply of Garands and pistols will dry up. Maybe they'll get the Berettas 20 years from now, but they won't ever be getting any of the current rifles used by our troops.
     
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  13. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    Yeah, they'll probably be around a grand for mixmasters with anything interesting going up for auction.

    I'm personally not interested, but I'm glad the CMP is making money.

    Anyone know what's going on with those Garands from the Philippines?
     
  14. armabill

    armabill Member

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    The Colt .45 that I had in the USMC in 1963 not only was loose but it didn't have any bluing on it. It was tough to hit the target for qualification.

    I doubt that I'll be getting one. Not at the price that they'll be asking.
     
  15. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    One issue previously discussed and amplified last year by the CMP was the timeline. We haven't seen this bill enacted yet, and the Secretary of the Army still has to sign over the guns. Once that happens the guns ownership transfers, and only then will the CMP start unloading the crates. Since they plan to inspect each gun they said it would take months for the first ones to be offered. Disassembly, function checks, rebuilds if necessary, grading, cataloguing, pictures, and then uploading to the newer portion of the website means lots of work and time. One prediction was that if the guns were released in the Feb/March time frame, guns would become available later than August.

    We are about on the same timeline now as last time. It will be next summer at the earliest. Still - thats a whole bunch better than a Magpul product release! ; )
     
  16. John Joseph

    John Joseph Member

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    The last I heard, maybe two years ago, the USN still had good, functioning 1911s still being issued for sentry duty.
    OTOH my CO's 1911 in the USAR was so loose it rang like a cow bell.
     
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  17. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

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    There was not a single 1911 I saw in my time in the Army I would want as a weapon. They were just too worn out. As a piece of living history maybe.
     
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  18. RedlegRick

    RedlegRick Member

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    The .45 I was briefly issued falls squarely in the junk gun category, as like George Dickel up above, mine rattled like a castanet and almost looked like it was in the white, so much of the finish was worn away. I wouldn't give 'em fifty bucks for that piece of it came around. It was only sheer luck I managed to qualify with it, so shot out it was.
     
  19. Wisco

    Wisco member

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    I had quite a bit of time with hands on the 1911s issued to SF groups. They were from the 1940s, refurbished god knows how many times, and still nothing as good a new mil-spec 1911 from Colt or SA. They were just okay and some of the older SF guys and some support guys chose them for whatever reason. They weren’t junk, but they weren’t great, and they aren’t what’s going to be for sale through CMP.

    Of the arms room pistols (M9, 1911, M11, G19), the 1911s were the second to last choice for anyone who got a choice. The only gun people (that knew better) wanted less was the M9. Can’t wait for those to hit the CMP and see people go crazy for it.

    The older 1911s I came across then and later in the civilian world that weren’t upgraded were rattle trap pieces of crap. Guns that had some serious slop.

    Even for a nostalgia piece, I’d want it to be nice, which theses won’t be.

    Finally, it would be cool for military veterans to get first crack at the 1911s - for nostalgia’s sake. Having served, I’m perplexed at the non-veterans who go bonkers for military weapons and regalia, the same ones who will drive up the prices of the CMP 1911s. I guess It’ll be nice for more of them to be able to play army with a legit 1911!
     
  20. DavidABQ

    DavidABQ Member

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    I am looking forward to these being released to the CMP and for them to start selling to the public.whether I buy one or not will be determined by price and condition.
     
  21. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    I think we need to remember that the CMP will grade the guns. They have 5 different grades and charge accordingly. Service grade is what you want, not rack or field grade. I would not recommend someone buying one if they want to shoot it a lot. Up to 1945 the slides were not heat treated like new 1911's and are prone to cracking. If they have been fitted with newer slides then that won't be an issue but there will no way to know that until you buy one. For about $800 you can buy a new Colt Gov't model with better sights and it will generally be a much better pistol in just about every respect. I know, I have two. One was built in 1991 and the other 2013. Both excellent shooters.

    If the service grade pistol will be priced above 1K I'll probably pass. That's really about all they are worth, maybe even not worth that much.

    I know, some will pay more but I think they are buying for nostalgia and nothing more. There is a pretty big market for antiques. Old timers with money to burn get crazy trying to connect with the past.:D I was issued one in the Navy but no big deal to me. I'd rather have another Sig.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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  22. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I am less than 2 hours from a CMP store. If I really wanted a 1911, I would go there in pick out one myself and not order one "site unseen." Same thing with anything else the CMP carries, I would just go to the store and look. But in actuality? No. I probably would not buy a 1911 from CMP. There are several companies that make modern 1911s look like old school WWII service weapons if I wanted a nostalgic kick that bad.
     
  23. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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    No thanks. I'd like to see some Carbines though.
     
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  24. JONWILL

    JONWILL Member

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    If they are in the same condition they were in we got issued in the early 1980’s they are complete beaters

    I agree with you. Better to buy a modern remake
    Probably the only original parts are the slide and frame but they might not match

    Better off buying a GI frame and Slide then putting
    newer parts on them. That will be as close as the ones they will be selling

    It does go to a good cause though
     
  25. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    They will vary greatly. When I was an assistant armorer in 1992, we traded ours in for new M-9s. They had been recycled and reconditioned a lot. Mostly for fun, we took a few and rebuilt them to have a few really nice ones. (Mostly for the cdr and 1sg.) If you just replace the springs, link, and bushings, it goes a long way toward cleaning them up. I even made a few phone calls as a pfc, to see if it was even possible to buy a dozen of the old frames to have as projects. (It was not.)

    But yeah. There have always been G.I.s available. There are new 1911s available for about $400. For there to be a compelling reason to get one, it would have to be a miraculous bargain.
     
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