Good Samaratan, CCW, takes out Bad Guy FL

[the iron horse]

Good to hear he is stable.
Keeping him in prayer.

Thanks for the update

 

[yokel]

I arm myself for self defense, however, my primary interest lies in collecting and target shooting.

It's just silly and pretentious to regard yourself as some sort of public servant who can help make our communities safer, more confident, stronger, and less frightening.

 

[camslam]

I have a duty to my family, I am the primary earner in my household and I have a job that is 95% typing. One bullet in the wrist and I’m out of work permanently (unless I want to train for a whole new career at the age of 47). Where are all the grateful patrons of Burger King going to be then? It may sound harsh or cold but my primary responsibility is to my family. It’s not my job to step in and stop a crime. I t most certainly isn’t my job to try to apprehend an armed robber.

I think we all understand where your priorities are, I think 95%+ of us would agree with those priorites, what our problem is with is the apathy and implication that our priorites are out of whack if we were to take action.

I arm myself for self defense, however, my primary interest lies in collecting and target shooting.

It's just silly and pretentious to regard yourself as some sort of public servant who can help make our communities safer, more confident, stronger, and less frightening.

This is the kind of attitude from gun owners that drives me crazy. Who on THR is claiming to be a "weekend super cop", a "vigilante superhero", or the "all powerful protector of society"?

We are people that choose to be armed in case we are presented with a situation where it would be in our best interests to be armed. For many of us that isn't limited to protecting only ourselves or families. Nobody is looking for trouble, looking for the opportunity to make the 6 o'clock news and be famous. But the turning point for me as to whether or not I WOULD take action IF the situation called for it, was simply thinking about how I would feel if someone that was in a position to protect one of my loved ones, chose not to.

EVERY ONE makes their own decision, but the apathy towards stepping up to help another and asking the question: Where are all the grateful patrons of Burger King going to be then? , tells volumes about a person in my opinion. Maybe, most of the people at the Burger King won't care, who knows, at the end of the day it comes down to what allows you to sleep at night. If protecting YOUR family is the only priority, and it allows you to sleep at night, then more power to you. I guess it is kind of like the arguments I make with anti's is what it comes down to.

They are always saying you don't need to carry a gun because the chances you'll ever have to use it are so remote it isn't worth it. I tell them in reply, tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people in our country ever year that are the victim of crimes. Followed up with a hope that the terrible crimes that happen in this country, would happen to those that so easily dismiss the events that happen to others.

There are some parallels in that for me, regarding those that carry a weapon, but refuse to use in the defense of other innocents.

 

[rainbowbob]

It's just silly and pretentious to regard yourself as some sort of public servant who can help make our communities safer, more confident, stronger, and less frightening.

It may be silly and pretentious to think carrying a gun is going to accomplish those ends...but PLEASE don't think that we can't all work harder at making "our communities safer, more confident, stronger, and less frightening."

Neighborhood watches, graffiti paint-outs, garbage clean-ups, repairing broken windows, and many other volunteer efforts CAN and DO make an enormous difference.

Get involved! We must not give up on this country, or hide in our homes and cede the streets over to the thugs and gangstas. We must take back and hold what belongs to us all.

 

[Rockwell1]

I quit, I guess I'm just not cut out to be an internet hero

I do have to admit though that I find the thinly veiled contempt dripping from some of these posts entertaining

 

[JWJacobVT]

Yup I love it and that is WHY this great country USA is the way it is today. It's all about me and I don't wish to get involved. This is %@%$^.

I will state it again as it is what I believe and the reason I carry. To protect my life and the lives of others(family, friends, other folks) from harm or death. Period.

 

[4Freedom]

I have to disagree with some people here, especially Jeff. Jeff says CCW doesn't deter crime. I still say that our society has yet to utilize an organized unit of CCW carriers. Our constitution says "We The People". In olden days almost all male citizens were part of the government milita and all men were armed and well trained with guns. Today, in our society of metrosexuals and white collared urbanites, we have become detached from any means of self-defense and depend on a professional law enforcement agency to protect the lives of ourselves and loved ones. We live in a society that college, work, money having fun partying or chasing girls/guys is considered normal. We enjoy our creature comforts and do all we can to overlook the problems around the world and within our own society. Guns and self-defense is something for the movie screen or those people in uniforms. People always say Call the Cops, not grab your guns. We were taught we are helpless and even this is the agenda our government is now promoting.

This is the main reason why in high crime areas, crime is proliferating. There has always been oppression, poverty, inequality, greed and corruption. However, in this day and age, being a civilized industrialized society, we have a high amonut of violent crime in our cities.

Jeff says guns don't scare dumb criminals away from crime. I would like to see Jeff and the rest of his police department turn in their guns and patrol the streets with clubs. I really wonder if your badge and uniforms will be enough to deter these people from attacking you. Imagine if the Oakland police force was unarmed, how many more dead police there would have been during the last attack.

What citizens need to do is bond together and be highly trained. Criminals do fear armed citizens who know what they are doing. I think CCW is actually not the greatest solution, but open carry would result in a major deterrant in crime. I bet if the gentleman in burger king was wearing his gun on his side in the open, the gunman may have thought twice about robbing that Burger King and both of them would be alived and not wounded today.

My analogy I posted earlier stands. These criminals are smart enough to evade the police, commit a robbery, many can read and write, they are not mentally retarded so much that they know a barrel in their face cannot kill them.

Some here say that guns don't scare criminals. I would liek to know what would happen if the Detroit police department decided to unarm themselves and patrol the street with nightsticks. Since criminals don't fear guns, I am sure there woudl be no difference in crime or attacks on police.

If criminals are not afraid of guns and not deterred by armed citizens, who are well trained and organized, then why on earth has their been so many high roaders reporting that their lives were saved by pulling a gun. Please review the post about Times People Had to Pull Their Gun and how it saved both criminal and victim from a violent episode.

What Americans need to do is organized together. We need to stop believing that some overworked police officer cares more about our lives than ourselves. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away and the criminals know it. How can a measly 3% of the population carryign guns and perhaps a few percent more illegally carrying guns make a major difference. With a society is highly trained in defense and is dangerous in their own right, the local thugs are no longer the kings of the blocks. These gangs and criminals thrive off an image of being powerful and deadly. IF the people in the surroundings are better potential killers then themselves, operating chaos in these neighborhoods will not be advantageous. They will clean up their act or become polite (non-lethal) criminals. Tough law abiding citizens with a police force with proper funding and is not overworked by a large number of victims will result in a society that is very difficult for violent criminals to operate.

We can thank a nation of disarmed people, for the havoc in MExico. Becuase only military is allowed a majority of the weapons and the government being so corrupt, the citizens are helpless. Look what happens when you have to depend on law enforcement to protect yoru country? The country falls into chaos. Mexicans are very helpless and there is no fear of militias from overrunning the country and ruling over the citizens. There is a reason why these cartels will kidnap helpless relatives in Mexico and demand ransom from the wealthier relative in USA, many times killing them anyway. If the average Mexican could own the guns the cartels have, I bet the cartels would in fact not being have so much fun.

 

[medmo]

Wow, I see a lot of jumping to conclusions without anyone knowing any specifics. Why are any of us quickly assuming that this person unnecessarily escalated the situation? How does any of us know that he didn't feel his life was in jeopardy? If someone comes into a fast food joint waving a deadly weapon around I'm thinking that I might feel my life could be in jeopardy. I have a responsiblity to come home to support my family and not get killed by a criminal in a stick up at a fast food joint. My reaction would be dependent on the situation. Since none of us know any details there is nothing we have to base any sound judgement on this man's reaction.

 

[meef]

Wow, I see a lot of jumping to conclusions without anyone knowing any specifics.

Conclusion jumping is the only exercise some people get.

 

[Rockwell1]

Jeff says guns don't scare dumb criminals away from crime. I would like to see Jeff and the rest of his police department turn in their guns and patrol the streets with clubs

Some here say that guns don't scare criminals. I would liek to know what would happen if the Detroit police department decided to unarm themselves and patrol the street with nightsticks. Since criminals don't fear guns, I am sure there woudl be no difference in crime or attacks on police.

Both of these quotes imply that the police carry firearms solely as a deterrent. The deterrent value of the guns lies in the fact that the police can and will use them to defend themselves or take detain someone

 

[Sgt.Sausage]

==> Wonder if Buger King is going to pay his medical bills?

==> Depending on where he was shot this guy is going to have medical difficulties the rest of his life. Is BK going to compensate that?



I gotta disagree with that entire line of questioning. Sure, it would be *nice* if BK *offered* to assist ... but come on, dude! This was a RandomOccurrence(tm). There was absolutely no negligence on BKs part that caused a RandomBadGuy(tm) to do something stupid in their store.


It sucks for the guy, if BK doesn't volunteer assistance -- but in my opinion they are under no obligation whatsoever to do so. BK didn't *require* the CCW holder to act. Heck, they didn't even *ask* him to get involved, no did they even *know* about it until after it happened.


Where is their negligence? Where is their responsibility for the act? Why should BK be responsible for some J.Random.BadGuy?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Both of these quotes imply that the police carry firearms solely as a deterrent. The deterrent value of the guns lies in the fact that the police can and will use them to defend themselves or take detain someone

That's why I carry -- to defend myself. And I hope that the fact that I and others carry will have a deterrant effect on those who might attack me.

In other words, I carry for exactly the same reason cops carry, except that I don't make arrests.

 

[Deanimator]

The truth of the matter is that private gun ownership is essentially about a hobby, avocation, and pastime as far as i'm concerned instead of some misguided notion of being there to help the oppressed and abused in their hour of need.

You have no more legal duty to protect third party individuals than the police do, which is precisely zero.

I have no legal duty NOT to protect someone else who cannot effectively protect himself.

It's a matter of CHOICE.

 

[Rockwell1]

I gotta disagree with that entire line of questioning. Sure, it would be *nice* if BK *offered* to assist

Before you can disagree with this line of questioning you need to understand this line of questioning.

The point to those posts was (and is) that this guy was an idiot for trying to play hero and he's going to pay for it for the rest of his life

 

[Rockwell1]

I have no legal duty NOT to protect someone else who cannot effectively protect himself.

Are you saying that you're not legally required not to protect someone

 

[Jeff White]

In other words, I carry for exactly the same reason cops carry, except that I don't make arrests

No Vern you don't carry a weapon for the exact same reason the police do. The police are armed so that they have the tools to enforce the law. A police officers weapon is not just for self defense, but to provide him/her with the means to use force if necessary to do the job. A private citizen can't use his weapon to coerce someone to to take an action he might not otherwise take, a police officer can. If a private citizen with a CCW permit used his weapon the way the police do, he'd lose the permit at a minimum and end up in jail at the maximum. The weapons the police have are tools to enforce the will of the state (expressed through the law). Self defense is secondary.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I said:

In other words, I carry for exactly the same reason cops carry, except that I don't make arrests

Jeff said:

No Vern you don't carry a weapon for the exact same reason the police do. The police are armed so that they have the tools to enforce the law. A police officers weapon is not just for self defense, but to provide him/her with the means to use force if necessary to do the job.

How is that different from what I said: "I carry for exactly the same reason cops carry, except that I don't make arrests ?"

 

[doc540]

If a gun toting criminal enters a space that I'm occupying, I consider that to be a personal threat.

Without the predictive powers of Karnak the Great, I can't know whether or not he intends to leave peaceably or herd everyone into a backroom for their execution.

For instance, what if an armed citizen had seen George Hennard enter the Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and assumed Hennard's intention was to rob the cashier? That assumption could have cost two dozen innocent people their lives.

(True, he didn't just walk in, but the analogy works.)

How long does one wait for the armed criminal to reveal his intentions?

When mild mannered, David Lee Holland, a local resident, bank security guard with no prior criminal record entered my local savings and loan branch in Port Arthur, Texas, who would guess that instead of just robbing it he would make the two, young, women employees kneel before he shot them both in the top of the head with a .45 auto?

If a concealed carry holder had been in the lobby, how long should he have waited?

Should he have shot first (if given the opportunity) or waited until the girls were kneeling, or.......you get the point.

Finally, what if a concealed carry holder in 1991 (if it had been legal to carry then) had been in the "I Can't Believe It's Yogurt" shop in north Austin, Texas?

Should he have remained "uninvolved" and assumed the robber would take the cash and leave instead of raping and murdering four, innocent teenage girls before setting them on fire?

Bad guys don't always just take the money and run.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The lesson is, if you are in the presense of an armed man who is intent on committing a felony, your life is in his hands -- unless you take action to defend yourself.

 

[USASA]

Opinions are going to vary......

You never know how this would have ended had the customer hadn't taken defensive action.

The BG could have shot someone just because...or, could have just left with the money. Hard to say.

I've thought a lot about a senario such as this myself and, I really don't know what I'd do. It would depend on the circumstances.

I'm pulling for the good guy in this incident though. Each person has a code of ethics they tend to follow.

On a lighter note: Do you think this is going to become known as, "The Shootout at the BK Corral."

 

[rogerjames]

Jeff says guns don't scare dumb criminals away from crime. I would like to see Jeff and the rest of his police department turn in their guns and patrol the streets with clubs. I really wonder if your badge and uniforms will be enough to deter these people from attacking you. Imagine if the Oakland police force was unarmed, how many more dead police there would have been during the last attack.

What citizens need to do is bond together and be highly trained. Criminals do fear armed citizens who know what they are doing. I think CCW is actually not the greatest solution, but open carry would result in a major deterrant in crime. I bet if the gentleman in burger king was wearing his gun on his side in the open, the gunman may have thought twice about robbing that Burger King and both of them would be alived and not wounded today.

4FREEDOM,
Ohh.... where to start?

1. Jeff never said "guns don't scare dumb criminals". Please copy and paste where he said this in case I missed it.

First, you assume that criminals are dumb. Then YOU insinuated...without facts or statistics... that the number of CCW holders was a deterrent to crime. Jeff posted statistics that dispute your argument. You ignored the statistics/facts, (as do most antis), and proceeded to create hypothetical scenarios to try to justify your opinion. Is there an anti amongst us?

2. You hilariously try to compare you without your CCW to the disarming of the Oakland Police Department. I had to pry myself off the floor and explain to the rest of the household that I wasn't laughing at a joke. No further comment needed on this one.

3. Open Carry would result in a major deterrant of crime.
Sigh... Listen grasshopper. Part of the success of CCW is the element of surprise and concealment. Open Carry eliminates that part. Since many criminals are willing to attack and exchange gunfire with other known armed criminals and their cohorts, I don't think they will be afraid of you. IN FACT... I would suggest that open carry will make you a victim before you ever defend a life. Since most criminals obtain their guns illegally... you look like an easy target to me. 5 guys with guns at your head, taking your "open carry" piece might make you wish you had concealed it.

There is so much more to say... but I see why Jeff bowed out.

 

[USASA]

Follow-on Post

After reading all the replies and posting my own - #157, I had to add this Follow-on Post.

One of the folks here has a signature line that goes, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

After reading some of the viewpoints on this thread...might be better said if that line was changed to:

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. But, if you see anything dangerous, don't get involved...ever."

 

[Deanimator]

Are you saying that you're not legally required not to protect someone

Precisely.

Somebody who doesn't want to protect another has no legal duty to do so.

Similarly, I have no legal duty NOT to protect somebody in whose place I would be entitled to protect myself.

 

[Rockwell1]

Maybe it's me but i'm not sure I understand your phraseology.

If you're saying that you are not legally obligated to protect another citizen even if they're in a situation where you would be 100% justified in firing in your own defense, I agree totally I just couldn't quite grasp it the way you had it phrased in that first post

 

[4Freedom]

Rogerjames,

First, you assume that criminals are dumb. Then YOU insinuated...without facts or statistics

I did? I think you got it backwards.. It was Jeff who was sayhing most criminals are dumb and that only people who rob jewelry stores or banks are smart.

ignored the statistics/facts, (as do most antis), and proceeded to create hypothetical scenarios to try to justify your opinion. Is there an anti amongst us?

Who is the anti? How am I an anti? I was making an argument that guns scare criminals and armed citizens do deter crime? Maybe its you who are the anti for neglecting what is common sense and there is plenty of facts on my side. Armed and well train citizens will certainly be less of a target for the common thug, then weak and defenseless citiznes, its the nature of the beast.

2. You hilariously try to compare you without your CCW to the disarming of the Oakland Police Department. I had to pry myself off the floor and explain to the rest of the household that I wasn't laughing at a joke. No further comment needed on this one.

Are you laughing because you think citizens are mindless vegetables who are incompetent and have no means of helping to aid officers in distress? Are yo u saying if I am well trained with a gun, that I cannot also stop and deter a threat? Perhaps you should go along with the antis , saying that only police can save lives. Badge and uniforms are not what scare criminals, its an organized and well trained unit of people with weapons that do. My example is pristine and is perfectly sensible. Armed people, armed police, armed security deter crime. You think it is by magic that places that are high at risk for theft are heavily armed? Maybe, its all just for display. After all, guns are bad, they kill people, only police can save people, citiznes are just vegetables who kill innocents by mistake fumbling over their gun, according to your and your faulty logic.

No offense but I think my examples are not to be taken literally, its all hypothetical. I expect people to have an minimum IQ able to comprehend what I was trying to present.

Open Carry would result in a major deterrant of crime.
Sigh... Listen grasshopper. Part of the success of CCW is the element of surprise and concealment. Open Carry eliminates that part. Since many criminals are willing to attack and exchange gunfire with other known armed criminals and their cohorts, I don't think they will be afraid of you. IN FACT... I would suggest that open carry will make you a victim before you ever defend a life. Since most criminals obtain their guns illegally... you look like an easy target to me. 5 guys with guns at your head, taking your "open carry" piece might make you wish you had concealed it.

Uh huh.. Yeah right, a restaurant with ten guys with guns on their hip wouldn't scare a criminal at all. As a matter of fact, it would make him all the more wanting to risk his life for the $400 in the register. Well, if open carry is wrong, perhaps our police would be better hiding their firearms as well, I suppose by the fact they also openly carry guns, they also are much easier prey for criminals, since criminals generally hunt down armed people rather than the unarmed and helpless. Thanks Master Po for your wisdom.


Don't have a heart attack laughing about how stupid us citizens are for thinking guns can save lives and protect our societies.