good versatile all around rifle / caliber ?

[cracked butt]

If I were hunting, I would take a winchester 94 in .30-30. If I were just making noise and plinking an SKS would do fine.

the bullets have the aerodynamics of a refrigerator so usefulness beyond 100-150 yards will be iffy

The 170 gr bullets out of a 30-30 have just about the same BC as a 125 gr softpoint from a 7.62x39 and out to 300 yards, there is only a few inches in difference in drop.

You can buy 7.62x39 in 150 gr soft tips, so there is literally nothing you can do with 30-30 that you cannot do with the AK round

Besides the fact that the 30-30 is going to produce at least 1/3 more muzzle energy than the 7.62.

-the inferior rounds are ironically more expensive by a wide margin

Your right, the only 150 gr loads I can find are Norma and they cost $35/20. Inferior+expensive indeed.

 

[beerslurpy]

You can rationalize all you want, but nothing changes the fact that:

-30-30 and 7.62x39 are nearly the same catridge, so the real debate is over which weapon design is superior
-box fed/clip fed is superior to tube magazine in terms of safety, reloading speed, capacity and bullet designs permitted
-autoloading is simply superior to lever action
-both the AK and the SKS have better ergonomics than nearly every lever action, and this is saying a lot. The model 94's boat oar shaped stock is like shooting an AK that is missing a pistol grip.

If you cannot refute these points then you have to admit that the problem is not the cartidge but the crappy design of the lever action guns. They were light rifles designed for maximum cyclic rate in a time before semiauto had really been figured out yet.

There is no excuse for continuing to use a design that is just plain inferior. It would be like insisting on driving cars with 7:1 compression ratio in an age of 93 octane gas. The car would still run, but it would make a far poorer showing of it.

 

[beerslurpy]

Uh, wolf makes 150 gr soft points for under 10c a round.

 

[only1asterisk]

BS wrote:

-30-30 and 7.62x39 are nearly the same catridge
-box fed/clip fed is superior to tube magazine in terms of safety, reloading speed, capacity and bullet designs permitted
-autoloading is simply superior to lever action
-both the AK and the SKS have better ergonomics than nearly every lever action, and this is saying a lot. The model 94's boat oar shaped stock is like shooting an AK that is missing a pistol grip.

If this is your case for the 7.62x39, you'd be better off just saying "I like semiauto's better than lever guns." It would be easier to respect that.

David

 

[beerslurpy]

Cartidges dont fire themselves. You cant separate the catridge from the available guns that fire it.

 

[only1asterisk]

Tylden,

Either the Marlin 336 or CZ 527 would meet the need. If I didn't reload, I'd rather hunt with the 30-30. Plinking around would be cheaper with 7.62x39, but I think the obligation of making a clean kill would be more of factor in my decision.

If you can afford a CZ 527, why not get both a 336 and an SKS?


David

 

[Tylden]

I wish I could buy two more rifles right now, but only one will be in my near future. If I could buy two, it would probably be the CZ 527 in 7.62x39 and a Marlin golden 39A .22. ,although I'm still considering a .308 and the .30-30. I like the lever actions and think they are fine rifles (especially the Marlins)....and if nothing else I'll eventually get one just because I want one. I'd rather have a bolt action or lever action to hunt with though over an SKS or any semi auto. I'll get some semi-autos in the future though as I'd like to expand my collection before 2008 (just in case Hillary gets in the whitehouse ) Those will be the guns I buy with cash from a private collection though. For right now, I'm just trying to cover the bases, one gun at a time, and currently don't have any centerfires to go to.

 

[fisherman66]

.308
8mm if you reload (for hunting ammo) plinking is cheap but corrosive with surplus
30/30 is great, but not really varmint material over 150-200 yards.
I'd love to have a 44mag carbine, but that has worse ballistics than a slingshot.

 

[longrifleman]

The model 94's boat oar shaped stock is like shooting an AK that is missing a pistol grip.

That's why you should buy a 336!

My Marlin will consistantly shoot groups half the size of my SKS (or less). I realise rifles vary, especially SKS's, but sheesh.

The SKS as a hunting rifle, well, it's just like any other semi-auto. If you don't place your first round right in the vitals, it's just gonna show the other hunters what a bad shot you are.

What he said.

 

[mustanger98]

If this is your case for the 7.62x39, you'd be better off just saying "I like semiauto's better than lever guns." It would be easier to respect that.

David

Real good point. I agree. It's one thing to say "this works better for me personally". It's a whole 'nuther story to trash a weapon just because it's old and act like other people are stupid or wrong for using an old design.

-autoloading is simply superior to lever action

Most well place shots are made when the shooter takes his time and actually controls his rifle. Although it can be done, autoloading + adrenaline in a hunting situation don't encourage accurate shooting. Best to slow down and a levergun's plenty fast for that.

-box fed/clip fed is superior to tube magazine in terms of safety, reloading speed, capacity and bullet designs permitted

How many of us actually need to reload a weapon that's still holding 4, 5, 7rds after we shoot the deer? How many of us who shoot .30-30's feel the need to shoot spitzers in this rifle? In a tube mag, which is better ergonomically than an extended mag under the rifle's balance point, no spitzer's, no problem.

-both the AK and the SKS have better ergonomics than nearly every lever action, and this is saying a lot.

I've had AK's and SKS's in my hands. I never felt compelled to buy one based on ergonomics. I never met a levergun I didn't like. You were saying a lot about something?

There is no excuse for continuing to use a design that is just plain inferior.

There sure ain't. That's why I chose a weapon designed by John Moses Browning.

Uh, wolf makes 150 gr soft points for under 10c a round.

Wolf is steel cased and laquer coated. One thing I'll say for it is I've heard it'll sit in salt water for six month and still fire. But, in an American rifle with a tighter chamber, it won't always function right. May not bother a bolt action CZ or Charles Daly, but I wouldn't trust it. Besides, steel cases ain't fully reloadable.

I think the obligation of making a clean kill would be more of factor in my decision.

BINGO!!!

8mm if you reload (for hunting ammo) plinking is cheap but corrosive with surplus
30/30 is great, but not really varmint material over 150-200 yards.
I'd love to have a 44mag carbine, but that has worse ballistics than a slingshot.

8mm Mauser, according to Hornady's 5th Edition load manual, can be loaded with 125, 150, 170, and 200gr SP's for a wide range of varmints and game. Anything on North America and half of Africa.

Also according to the Hornady manual, .30-30 can be loaded light with 110gr'ers, but I'm not sure what they call that bullet. I'll have to check back in the book. I haven't heard much about those in use.

.44mag carbines ain't exactly tack drivers, but they're good for what they were designed for which is light, compact brush/saddle guns. I thing part of the problem is not finding the best load for each carbine and that can take some doing.

 

[MachIVshooter]

.

-30-30 and 7.62x39 are nearly the same catridge, so the real debate is over which weapon design is superior

Hodgdon lists the hottest loads for both cartridges (that I have found)

7.62x39mm:1612 ft/lbs w/150 gr. SP
.30-30:2045 ft/lbs w/170 gr. JSP

That's nearly 30% more energy in favor of the .30-30.

-box fed/clip fed is superior to tube magazine in terms of safety, reloading speed, capacity and bullet designs permitted

I don't see how safety is an issue here (unless you are loading spire-point bullets in a tube mag).
Reloading speed should not be an issue with hunting, unless you can't shoot for beans. I have never taken more than 2 shots at an animal
Capacity is a mute point in most areas, since the max legal cap. is 5+1. My marlin holds 6 in the tube.
bullet design is the one area where you have a point, but not so much for the short, low BC bullets the 7.62 fires at moderate velocities.

-autoloading is simply superior to lever action

For combat, maybe, but for hunting it makes no matter. However, I trust my 336 to feeed and fire every time than any SKS I have ever used (none could go through 50 rounds without a jam)

-

both the AK and the SKS have better ergonomics than nearly every lever action, and this is saying a lot. The model 94's boat oar shaped stock is like shooting an AK that is missing a pistol grip.

Personal preference.

I am not trying to say that one cannot kill a deer with an SKS or AK, but to argue that it is a better hunting arm than the .30-30 leverguns is not likely to bring alot of praise.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Hodgdon lists the hottest loads for both cartridges (that I have found)

7.62x39mm:1612 ft/lbs w/150 gr. SP
.30-30:2045 ft/lbs w/170 gr. JSP

That's nearly 30% more energy in favor of the .30-30.

The claim that the 7.62X39 is "ballistically equivallent" to the .30-30 is based on fudging. The 7.62 with light bullets (and consequently higher velocity) will yield kenetic energy figures approximating those of the .30-30 with much heavier bullets and lower velocity.

Match them bullet for bullet, and the .30-30 wins in a walk.

Both rifles are relatively short range propositions for hunting -- and at the ranges where they do best, the blunt nose bullets of the .30-30 suffer no appreciable disadvantage.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

Wolf is steel cased and laquer coated. One thing I'll say for it is I've heard it'll sit in salt water for six month and still fire. But, in an American rifle with a tighter chamber, it won't always function right. May not bother a bolt action CZ or Charles Daly, but I wouldn't trust it. Besides, steel cases ain't fully reloadable.

wolf functions beautifully in all of my american guns.

a few hundred rounds through my stag AR-15 without a single jam. about a hundred through my Browning HP without any stoppages.

wolf is some highly reliable stuff that that has a reputation stifled by poorly made weapons.

I still go with my assertion about .308 though.

 

[The Jackal]

Count my vote for the Marlin 336. A damn fine rifle! Mine belonged to my grandfather and still shoots as strait as it did the day it was made.

 

[TooTaxed]

Vern, I was lucky to find one of those Kimber-modified 6.5-x55 Swedes, and it's supplanted my trusty .30-06 Springfield as my favorite deer rifle. All one-shot immediate kills (longest shot 230-yd), no lost deer.

I don't consider .308 Milsurp to be inexpensive! I thought it was, which was why I bought a .308 ( hindsight, I should have gotten something in Russian 7.62x54R, which is in the same power range and MUCH cheaper! If I run across a good trade, it's done!). If you buy by the 1,000, you're looking at $140 $180 for non-reloadable .308 NATO stuff, plus shipping. American-made .308 is not commonly available as everything in stock and all current production goes to Iraq and Afghanistan, and current military training. The only inexpensive reloadable .308 is from India, which is of highly variable quality and not well-favored, at about $100/thousand plus shipping.

Considering you won't be hunting beyond 300-yd, I have to agree with the 7.62x39, which is about equivalent to the .30-30. Ammo is plentiful and about $80/1000. My SKS gives me 3" groups at 100-yd (and I can hit the 360-yd gong with every shot), but the bolt actions should do better. The SKS ejects vertically, so you need to mount one of the inexpensive ($30) short scopes...unless you install a case deflector ($5 from CDNN), in which case you can mount a long scope. The same goes for the Winchester lever actions, which is one reason I prefer the Marlins.

 

[mustanger98]

Considering you won't be hunting beyond 300-yd, I have to agree with the 7.62x39, which is about equivalent to the .30-30. Ammo is plentiful and about $80/1000. My SKS gives me 3" groups at 100-yd (and I can hit the 360-yd gong with every shot)

A 3" group at 100yds is 3 MOA. At 300yds, that 3MOA group is 9". How big is the 360yd gong?

Look back over this thread. There's a post or two that tells the difference between 7.62x29 and .30-30, the latter having 1/3 more muzzle energy over the commie round's lighter bullet's kinetic energy. And as someone else stated, some SKS's are not in as good a shape as others, so don't buy one automatically thinking you'll hunt with it. And that $80/1K.rds. ain't for hunting ammo, it's for plinking/fighting ammo.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, I was lucky to find one of those Kimber-modified 6.5-x55 Swedes, and it's supplanted my trusty .30-06 Springfield as my favorite deer rifle. All one-shot immediate kills (longest shot 230-yd), no lost deer.

One of these years I'm going to work up a load with 160-grain Nosler PJs and take mine elk hunting.

The 6.5, like many early smokeless powder cartridges, was designed on the idea that a looooong heavy bullet was the ideal. So it has the rifling twist to stablize virtually anything you feed it. When loaded with the right heavy bullet, it will penetrate like there's no tomorrow.

 

[No_Brakes23]

I own a Marlin '93 made sometime between '06 and '46, (The lost SerNos) and an SKS.

The butterfly wing blade rear & pin-tip front sights of the Marlin are extremely difficult for me to use with any accuracy even at 50 yards. I like just about everything else about the Marlin, though. It is real solid.

I haven't taken the SKS past 25 yard at the indoor range, but I have taken the M43 round out to 300 in a Saiga. The M43 round is more accurate in my hands, but things may be different for others.

Both the SKS and the levergun are nimble and fun to shoot. I like the SKS sights better, but I suspect a 336 with more personalized sights might be even more nimble than the SKS.

I think either the SKS or the 336 would fit the bill for what the OP wanted. I would go to the gun store and handle both weapons. Whichever I liked better would be the one I got.

Oh and around here, 7.62x39mm goes for 20%-40% of the price of .30-30, unless you are buying reloadable stuff.

So do ya want this 336:

Or this Yugo SKS:

(Prolly ain't fair showin' that 336SS next to the Yugo, but they are both pretty to me.)

 

[crewsr]

love my Marlin 336SS 30-30 Its the only rifle I have...need...well for now

 

[Kjervin]

My first Centerfire Rifle was a Marlin 336. It is still my favorite gun to hold. I don't care what else you get, whether it's one rifle or a hundred, you owe it to yourself to at the least pick one up; see how it feels. If it's not for you, fine: if it is, sublime!
Kj

 

[TooTaxed]

Mustanger, I hunt with bolt actions...I haven't needed repeat shots. But semiautos are a lot of fun for range work and plinking, and I like longer ranges. That 360-yd gong I mentioned is a man-sized head and torso made of plate steel, so the head is about 9" wide with the trunk being about 16" wide and two feet deep. Aiming at the head places the 7.62x39 bullet in the upper trunk area, so hitting it is actually rather easy with one shot, more challenging with quickly repeated shots.

Considering hunting with .30-30 and 7.62x39 (only those two!), if I were hunting primarily through brush and expected to get my shots well inside 100-yd, I'd choose the .30-30 blunt nose SP every time. But if I were hunting semi-open territory and expected my shots to be over 100-yd to, say 250-yd max, the 7.62x39 spitzer SP would be the choice. That big blunt nosed .30-30 bullet may have higher muzzle velocity than the 7.62, but it sheds velocity rather rapidly, while the spitzer keeps a much flatter trajectory and power at longer ranges. Wolf soft-point, hollow-point, and FMJ 125-gr ammo cost about $80/1000 when I bought my batches.

But, if I expect my shots to be upward of 150-yd, I'd prefer a spitzer bullet more powerful than either!

 

[John Deere]

Well let`s go over your criterea, you want a "do all rifle" for varminting, deer hunting, plinking , and target shooting. You don`t want a military style, you do want cheap ammo, and reliabilaty.
O.K., varminting requires a scope and accuracy, also a flat shooting cartridge so that range estimation is not so critical. This rules out AKs, SKSs, 30-30s, and 7.62x39s.
Deer hunting requires a minimum power level, most states (and me personaly) consider the .223 "not enough".
Ammo cost, the last case of South African I bought was $156.00 for 1260 rds. This eliminates the other rounds suggested (6.5x55, 243, etc.). Yes, I know you can buy 8 mm. and 7.62x54r cheaper but you can`t find a scoped rifle in those calibers very easily.
Through the process of elimination, it appears that you want a 308, but on what platform?
Remington commercial semi-autos tend to be fragile, and so are their pumps. Single shots take to long to reload, in the event that your deer may need another bullet to anchor it. Because of their military look, FALs, HKs, etc are out.
A bolt gun fits the bill, now the question is, sporter weight, or heavy barrel? The sporter is easy to carry, the heavy barrel is more comfortable to shoot, and will stand up to long strings of fire, which you said was important.
Spend as much as you can on a scope in the 3x9 to 4x12 range, and leave it on the low side when deer hunting. There
is always time to turn it up, never time to turn it down.
And before everybody forms a Lynch mob, I own examples of most of the firearms that I crossed off the list, so don`t feel that your ox was being gored. I was just trying to answer the question. Also, I hunt down near Falmouth, and know the type of terrain around Frankfort. Being a farmer myself, I understand the kind of abuse a "working rifle" has to go through ( a synthetic stock is your friend!! ). Regards, Bill

 

[newfalguy101]

Lots of good info given here and I would have to agree that a .308 bolt gun would meet the needs laid out in the original post.

I hunt deer with my SKS and wolf's 154 grain soft point, which shoots into about 2-21/2 inches at 100 yards with OPEN sights.

I have owned and played with a Win 94 in 30-30 and have also owned a Marlin 30-30, I currently dont own either ( not a knock on either of those fine rifles I just didnt happen to hang on them )

I am curious why you dismissed the "military" looking rifles.

I have and love my FAL ( ok , ok, its a Century Frankenfal ), it is chambered in 7.62 x 51 ( .308 Win ), handles very well and is fairly accurate ( 1 1/2- 2 inches at 100 Open sights) with MILSURP ammo, gotta love Port .

In short, a 308 bolt gun will probablybe your best bet ( as per your requirements) but dont knock a FAL or Cetme

 

[beerslurpy]

I wish you guys would read the title of the thread before assuming I am saying that the AK and SKS are better for hunting.

For the purpose of ONLY hunting and nothing else, the 30-30 is better than the AK from the standpoint of ballistics. I still personally prefer the AK for hunting, but obviously that is very far from a universal opinion.

For the purposes of self defense/home defense, the commie guns are better due to the design of the firearm. Lever action is just not the best combat long-arm any more. It was incredible in its day, but its day was a long time ago. Thanks to John Moses Browning and decades of refinement, we have much better guns today (the AK and SKS both borrow a lot of JMB inventions). The SKS is pretty close to the lever guns for combat, but clip feeding, semiauto and a bayonette give it a very slight edge.

For the purpose of plinking the commie guns are better due to ammo pricing. The only significantly cheaper way is 22 LR.

So in conclusion, the best OVERALL rifle/caliber is probably the AK in 7.62x39. Other guns may be more accurate or better suited to individual tasks, but the AK takes most of what made the model 94 awesome and throws in most of what made the tommy gun and garand awesome as well. Lol biased.

 

[mnrivrat]

Lots of good info given here and I would have to agree that a .308 bolt gun would meet the needs laid out in the original post.

Ditto ! 300 yds is stretching the energy level for clean kills on deer for both the 7.62 X 39 and the 30 - 30 Win.

I like both cartridges , I like lever guns , and even girls with buck teeth, but I would recommend the .308 in a bolt gun to fill your needs.