most versatile rifle
- Thread starter bennadatto
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I understand that the .22 is not considered a defense caliber, but if you dan't have a good .22 in your battery, you're really missing out.
I'm partial to Ruger 10/22, 77/22 or any other high quality rifle. Practice is easy, fun, cheap, and effective for small to medium game, as long as you've practiced enough!
I'm partial to Ruger 10/22, 77/22 or any other high quality rifle. Practice is easy, fun, cheap, and effective for small to medium game, as long as you've practiced enough!
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Based on your affinity of the late 19th century & leverguns, and low expense, I would definitely, highly recommend a lever action in .30-30 Winchester - either a Marlin 336 or Winchester 94 or one of the new Mossbergs. Ammo is very cheap, relative to other necked-round centerfires. The guns are cheap - A used Marlin or Glenfield can be found for around $200 even if you search around a bit and time it right (buy before Christmas). Accurate, fast, well made, handy, well-balanced, reliable, etc. A case can be made for the .30-30 levergun as an excellent defense rifle in its own right. The power level is much more than you need to take out human predators and deer, and perfectly adequate for larger game as well, up to and including moose and elk. It's one of the most versatile po-man's rifles, that's for sure, IMO. But a good turnbolt would fit the bill as well - just not make you as pleased - can't picture the Duke toting a bolt gun. 
walkenbear
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Based on your criteria sounds like a lever 30-30, Winchester / Marlin or new Mossberg would work for you as others have recommended.
ammo choices:
55 grain Remington accelerators get the small game thing done, and shoot fast & flat.
Standard 30-30 ammo can be had relatively cheap especially right before hunting season, good to 200 yards.
Hornady LEVERevolution 160 grain ammo, zeroed 3" high at 100 yards drops -.2" at 200 yards and -12" at 300 yards with 1000 ft lbs of energy left.
Self Defense load:
Federal 125 grain or better yet.
Remington's new 125 grain reduced "managed recoil" load, 2175 fps at muzzle & 1330 ftlbs, 900 ftlbs at 100 yards.
thats a lot of versatility in a 100 year old design.
a lever action in a pistol caliber would be good also, although costing you a little more initially, but in 357 you would probably make that up in ammo costs if you plinked more than anything, and in the long term would probably save money, especially if ammo costs continue to rise in the future.
I'll throw another one in, the SKS. Good to 200-250 yards, cheap to get and cheap & fun to shoot. It would fill your bill on all fronts, although it's not from the 1800's.
Although some of the AR guys might think so
.
L8R
W B
ammo choices:
55 grain Remington accelerators get the small game thing done, and shoot fast & flat.
Standard 30-30 ammo can be had relatively cheap especially right before hunting season, good to 200 yards.
Hornady LEVERevolution 160 grain ammo, zeroed 3" high at 100 yards drops -.2" at 200 yards and -12" at 300 yards with 1000 ft lbs of energy left.
Self Defense load:
Federal 125 grain or better yet.
Remington's new 125 grain reduced "managed recoil" load, 2175 fps at muzzle & 1330 ftlbs, 900 ftlbs at 100 yards.
thats a lot of versatility in a 100 year old design.
a lever action in a pistol caliber would be good also, although costing you a little more initially, but in 357 you would probably make that up in ammo costs if you plinked more than anything, and in the long term would probably save money, especially if ammo costs continue to rise in the future.
I'll throw another one in, the SKS. Good to 200-250 yards, cheap to get and cheap & fun to shoot. It would fill your bill on all fronts, although it's not from the 1800's.
Although some of the AR guys might think so
.L8R
W B
stubbicatt
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I second the recommendation of a G3 type rifle, or clone, AND since you indicated versatility, purchase a 22 long rifle conversion kit. You can plink all day for pennies, or shoot the respectable 308. So you get the best of all possible worlds, according to your criteria (cheap ammo) and you can successfully hunt most any game in North America, from prairie dog to elk!
CDNN has a deal going on right now on the PTR91 rifles, which bears looking at. The magazines are still quite inexpensive too.
CDNN has a deal going on right now on the PTR91 rifles, which bears looking at. The magazines are still quite inexpensive too.
Semmerling
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What this guy needs is exactly what he described....a .22 rifle. The most practical rifle one can own. Get a .22 mag if you must.
Before somebody writes that you can't kill anything with a .22, well thats nonsense, when I lived in Maine my uncle loaned his .22 rifle and two (2) LR bullets to an Indian friend every hunting season for over twenty years. He always got back deer meat, the rifle and one (1) unfired round back. As to defense...why do you think the AWC Amphibian was made for the Gov?
.22 all the way..You'll thank me for the recommendation.
Before somebody writes that you can't kill anything with a .22, well thats nonsense, when I lived in Maine my uncle loaned his .22 rifle and two (2) LR bullets to an Indian friend every hunting season for over twenty years. He always got back deer meat, the rifle and one (1) unfired round back. As to defense...why do you think the AWC Amphibian was made for the Gov?
.22 all the way..You'll thank me for the recommendation.
Goblin
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Definitely get the lever gun in .357!!! 1175 foot pounds at the muzzle,715 at 100 yds. That's good enough for SD and med. size game. They will hold 12 rds and can be topped up at will.Get a good handgun to go with it, and you'll have a very effective system!!!
bennadatto
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Thanks everyone for the responses!! There is always a wealth of information on this board!
So I think I'm leaning heavily towards the lever gun. I was a little worried it may be too slow for a SD rifle, but I feel better after reading some of your responses. Now the next question is 30-30 or .357?
I have pistols in .38 and .357, so I think I'm leaning that direction. Without beginning a caliber war, what would be a fair comparison of 30-30 and .357?
Thanks again!
So I think I'm leaning heavily towards the lever gun. I was a little worried it may be too slow for a SD rifle, but I feel better after reading some of your responses. Now the next question is 30-30 or .357?
I have pistols in .38 and .357, so I think I'm leaning that direction. Without beginning a caliber war, what would be a fair comparison of 30-30 and .357?
Thanks again!
rswartsell
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Yes, to a certain extent at least, I am interested in facts. I get the impression though that continued debate hijacks the thread from being a useful dialog for the original poster to some kind of competition of knowledge and having gotten a little caught up in it, I'm find I'm just not interested. I don't subscribe to certain concepts like maximum point blank range, so I think there is room for varying philosophies that don't need to be reconciled.
One interpretation of versatility is utility in the widest set of applications. IMHO, some of the suggested rifle/cartridge combinations should be recognized for their potential limitations as well as their capabilities. To quote Clint "A man's got to know his limitations." Never more important than when selecting a rifle.
For some users the limitations won't have much meaning if they never are in a situation that exposes them. As a commentor on this thread, I don't propose to know the posters full circumstances, but as long as he ends up happy, so do I.
One interpretation of versatility is utility in the widest set of applications. IMHO, some of the suggested rifle/cartridge combinations should be recognized for their potential limitations as well as their capabilities. To quote Clint "A man's got to know his limitations." Never more important than when selecting a rifle.
For some users the limitations won't have much meaning if they never are in a situation that exposes them. As a commentor on this thread, I don't propose to know the posters full circumstances, but as long as he ends up happy, so do I.
doc2rn
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Start with a Marlin 39A or 60, to practice on then move to a universal like an M1A Garand or the like.
The knowledge and experience of the .22 lr will help you alot in the long run and you can trade it in if you dont want to keep it. However I have a feeling you will.
The knowledge and experience of the .22 lr will help you alot in the long run and you can trade it in if you dont want to keep it. However I have a feeling you will.
toivo
Member
Another vote for the lever gun. Marlin, most likely. Winchester 94's seem to be priced unrealistically lately. I don't know much about the new Mossbergs, but I know that they don't have a loading port, but have to be loaded through the front of the magazine tube like a lever rimfire. That doesn't sound good to me--it removes one of the big advantages of the lever rifles, the ability to "top up" the magazine tube.
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Thernlund
Member
bennadatto said:
If it weren't for that bit I quoted above, I'd have to say an AK clone. No question. It meets all of your criteria.
Small to mid-sized game? Absolutely.
Home defense? It's a battle rifle. What do you think?
Dependable? - Hard to find a more dependable rifle.
Inexpensive to purchase? Usually around $400, sometimes less.
Inexpensive ammo? For what it is, you bet.
Accurate? Within about 200 yards, reasonably so.
AKs are tough and dependable. If you ran out of ammo you could beat an assailant (or small to mid-sized game) to death with it. Then when you found some more ammo, the rifle would still work just fine.
But alas... you mentioned a preference for late 19th century lever guns. Shows you have taste. I'd say any Marlin lever gun would be just the ticket. You could get a real nice 336 for right about $350 to $400 if you look around a bit.
-T.
walkenbear
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Hi toivo,
I'm looking at a picture of the mossberg 30-30 on the website, it definitely has a side loading port like the Winchester or Marlin. They do make the same model (both called 464 I think) in 22lr which like you said does load from the front down the tube.
I'm looking at a picture of the mossberg 30-30 on the website, it definitely has a side loading port like the Winchester or Marlin. They do make the same model (both called 464 I think) in 22lr which like you said does load from the front down the tube.
kcmarine
Member
+1. Everyone needs a .22 rifle, period. They can be used for HD (if you can pull enough shots off, and you're desperate, which you usually are, but this isn't to say there aren't better calibers for this use), hunting small game, informal social shooting, competition, bringing new shooters into the sport, and, if you buy a design like the 10/22, you can tinker with the rifle until your heart's content. Another plus, especially for the OP, is that the ammo is cheap and available pretty much everywhere. This allows you to practice all day long and spend pocket change doing it.
I say get a .22 first, THEN build your collection. You won't be sorry you did.
toivo
Member
walkenbear said:
Yup, you're right, I'm wrong. It's the Henry (Big Boy and 30-30) that doesn't have a side loading port.
Define small to medium game. How small, squirrel, rabbit size? Medium, whitetail deer? Too much size variation there for one gun to be good for both sizes. If you can get into reloading most smallbores, say up to 30 cal , please exclude magnums, can be loaded down to "plinker" level that could take small game. Generally accuracy suffers with light loads. A good 30-30 would probably work best in this range, plinker bullets are available, and the case is small enough that you can get better ignition than with larger cases. I have never loaded the 30-30 in this manner, but have done a bit with a 30-06. Accuracy did suffer and I would prefer a good 22 for the small game.
As for your defense rifle a .357 would be ok, but not the best for med game, there the 30-30 would shine, giving more residual power at a much longer range thant the 357, and I am not that crazy about the 30-30 . Having multiple guns both above and below it in power level. If could have only one caliber in the area where I live, E. Texas ie southeast US I think it would be my choice. It's not the "absolute best" for most things , but is adequate,. Another good choice would be the a leveraction in 35 Remington, again especially versitile if you reload. You can load 158 gr cast semiwadcutters designed for the 38-357 in this caliber with good results. I have been doing this for about 40 years for my Dads Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. Load it down to levels near the 38 special and it would be fair for most small game with minimal meat damage.
As for your defense rifle a .357 would be ok, but not the best for med game, there the 30-30 would shine, giving more residual power at a much longer range thant the 357, and I am not that crazy about the 30-30 . Having multiple guns both above and below it in power level. If could have only one caliber in the area where I live, E. Texas ie southeast US I think it would be my choice. It's not the "absolute best" for most things , but is adequate,. Another good choice would be the a leveraction in 35 Remington, again especially versitile if you reload. You can load 158 gr cast semiwadcutters designed for the 38-357 in this caliber with good results. I have been doing this for about 40 years for my Dads Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. Load it down to levels near the 38 special and it would be fair for most small game with minimal meat damage.
ThomasT
Member
The most versitile gun is the one you reload for. Reloading lets you taylor your loads for the game you are hunting. I have round ball loads for my 30-30 and my 357 lever guns. That puts them in the 22 catagory and i can go up from there.
Look at riflemag.com and find a back issue with the article by Brian Pierce on the 357 magnum rifle. It will give you a new respect for that gun/cartridge combo.
And no matter what you buy make sure you own a 22 of some sort. They are the most useful gun you can get. period.
Look at riflemag.com and find a back issue with the article by Brian Pierce on the 357 magnum rifle. It will give you a new respect for that gun/cartridge combo.
And no matter what you buy make sure you own a 22 of some sort. They are the most useful gun you can get. period.
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Just bought a Henry lever-action rifle in .22 mag. The action works like a dream. They told me to expect accuracy to be around 1.5 MOA at 100 yds. They are making their leverguns in the pistol calibers now also. You might want to consider one of them.
bennadatto
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Thanks again everyone for the great resonses!
Like I said earlier, I think I've narrowed my choices down to a lever gun, chambered for 30-30 or .357. Since I already own a .357 revolver, would the convenience of similar calibers between firearms trump the extra power of a 30-30?
Like I said earlier, I think I've narrowed my choices down to a lever gun, chambered for 30-30 or .357. Since I already own a .357 revolver, would the convenience of similar calibers between firearms trump the extra power of a 30-30?
bennadatto
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As in .357 having less range? What would be the loss in range / distance accuracy of the .357 vs 30-30?
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/
With 158 grain .357 ammo, you're going to be over 7" high at 100 yards, but over 34 inches low at 300. Energy will be down to 715 ft-lbs at 100 yards, and only 458 at 200.
With 150 grain .30-30, you're going to be over 3" high at 100 yards, and about 14-17.5" low at 300. Energy will be between 1250 and 1460 ft-lbs at 100 yards, and between about 850 and 1000 ft-lbs at 200.
There you have it. You really have dramatically decreased effectiveness at range with the .357. If you keep hunting shots to no more than 100 yards with a .357, you'll be fine. If "versatile" for you might also mean longer shots (200-300 meters), the .30-30 is better suited for your needs.
J
With 158 grain .357 ammo, you're going to be over 7" high at 100 yards, but over 34 inches low at 300. Energy will be down to 715 ft-lbs at 100 yards, and only 458 at 200.
With 150 grain .30-30, you're going to be over 3" high at 100 yards, and about 14-17.5" low at 300. Energy will be between 1250 and 1460 ft-lbs at 100 yards, and between about 850 and 1000 ft-lbs at 200.
There you have it. You really have dramatically decreased effectiveness at range with the .357. If you keep hunting shots to no more than 100 yards with a .357, you'll be fine. If "versatile" for you might also mean longer shots (200-300 meters), the .30-30 is better suited for your needs.
J
justin 561
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You can do that all with a AK47. NTM the ammo is extremely cheap, as well as the rifle.
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