Goodbye, Saiga....

[Dave McCracken]

Well, I finally quit procrastinating today and got the loaner Saiga down to my dealer to ship it back to the owner. I had been busy, but a real factor was I had grown to like it.

That had come as a surprise. If you read the threads in the archives, I mention the heavy trigger, the rudimentary sights, and the lack of a hold open device.

However, I also tell of fast followups, mag changes that border on a blur, and some COFs that ended with perforated targets, lots of hulls on the ground and a grin on Yr Humble Scrivener.

I did squeeze one more range trip in before I cleaned it and sent it off. A couple weeks back, I went to a shooting pit on a farm I can get into on occasion. I took, among other ammo,a 2 lb coffee can full of slugs.

As you may surmise, I've ended up with a little of this slug, a little of that over the last 50 years. Eventually, those partial 5 packs got dumped into that can to serve as plinking ammo. There were a few old Federal Sabots, some leftover DOC issue Winchester and Remington slugs, and some ancient Remington 7/8 oz slugs dating back to the 70s.

And a couple Rottweil 3" Brennekes completed the mix.

After a few loads of birdshot to warm things up, I loaded those 5 round mags with a mix of slugs. Using a couple paper grocery bags propped up to simulate torsos at 15 yards, I worked on fast COM hits with the slugs.From a low ready position like I would use on a quail hunt, I'd mount and shoot one slug.

Note: Double taps with 12 gauge slugs are hardly ever a good idea.

Almost all shots resulted in a .73 caliber hole where it should be.

Moving back to about 25 yards, I repeated the exercise. Same results, and using two targets I noted the barrel moved from one to the other target with no muzzle rise. I am pleased with the way the Saiga just hangs there..

Towards the end, I loaded up both 5 round mags on hand and emptied the can. Tossing the can out as far as I could,about 13 yards, I plinked the slugs at the can.

Rolling and tumbling,that can danced over the frozen mud and dirt like a dervish. I stayed on top of the moves, holding a bit low and using the crude sights like I was born to them.

10 slugs never went so fast. I was grinning as the can, now just a lacework of metal between large holes,came to rest.

Being a good guy, I took it with me when I left. I wish I had taken a picture before I laid it to rest in the recycle bin.

The Saiga ate it all.

While some others can debate whether the Saiga platform is the "Ultimate" fighting shotgun,let me say this.

It's as much fun as I can handle.

And to the owner, who wishes to remain anonymous, many thanks....

 

[Milkmaster]

Thanks for the range report. I did not realize you still had the loaned Saiga until now. Glad you enjoyed the time with it and proud you were able to share it with all of us.

Just for us old school shotgunnerss who are curious.. what does a Saiga go for these days? Are there many variations or basically one? I never see them at the local gun shows I attend around Nashville. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

 

[Girodin]

I have enjoyed reading your reviews. I hope you get a chance to shoot a converted gun. I would enjoy hearing your thoughts on it. To me the difference is like switching your TV to hi def.

Saiga prices seem to have fallen along with everything else. I have seen them for $450-$500.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Yeah, S-12 goes for about $500. To convert it, you'd need a trigger group ($30), Pistol Grip & Nut $16, Stock $35, Retaining Plate $6, so less than $100 extra you can make it one hell of a fun toy. Note that the basic conversion on an S-12 needs a little more work than a rifle. If you don't want to spend extra money on special trigger group, trigger guard, etc. you'll need a little extra time and a dremel.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, Guys. It was major fun AND informative.

I would like to try out a conversion, sometime. Just for comparison's sake, of course.

Holding one hand behind me, fingers crossed....

 

[AcceptableUserName]

Dave,


I plan to make a well-converted Saiga my GO-TO shotgun. I'll never part with my pumps, but the ability to have that much firepower on the AK platform in a shotgun is a pretty tough thing to scoff at. Would you trust the gun that much, were you me?

 

[bullturkey]

I trust mine.

 

[Snarlingiron]

Don't seem right, Dave. You have all those 870's, that sleek White Onyx, and no ugly but highly effective Saiga to keep them all company...?

 

[SuperNaut]

If I were Dave, I'd be waiting for the price on S12's to come back down. They're still a leeeetle high.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Careful Dave. If you convert an S-12 it is addicting! You will then want a .223, x39, .308, 5.45, .410, and a 20 gauge and then will then be wondering what caliber comes out next lol

 

[Girodin]

I've seen them at $450-$500 which is where they were before all the panic buying started (when they weren't inflated from shortages). I don't see them going much lower than that. It is as low as they have been since saigas gained in popularity. That popularity only seems to be growing

Don't seem right, Dave. You have all those 870's, that sleek White Onyx, and no ugly but highly effective Saiga to keep them all company...?

This ugly? I think not

 

[Milkmaster]

Went to the pistol range this morning and saw brand new s-12's listed for $649 + tax and background check. Little higher than I expected to see. Guess I will wait. No money burning my pocket yet

 

[Girodin]

Classicarms.us has them at $500. I don't know what your transfer fee would be. Mine are typically $25. Add $10-$20 shipping and you are well below $649. I'd definately pass at that price.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I don't regard the Saiga as ugly.

Of course, one of my favorite shotguns is Frankenstein,a junkyard mutt of an 870 that's cosmetically challenged but shoots sweetly.

AUN, that's a tough question. If it can, after some break in rounds, pass the Ayoob Test, why not?

That's 200 rounds of duty ammo, glitch free.

FWIW, the loaner was nigh new, and never hiccuped except on some superlight 7/8 oz, 1100 FPS creampuffs. But, few autos could function that and still work with standard loads. If any.

I am waiting. WW is going after her Master's, her main job went away last July. I'm down to part time myself, so no new shotguns until things improve.

And a worked Saiga just might make the short list. That's if I can get a few things fixed or changed.

They are:

The trigger,

Lack of a bolt hold open.

Distortion of a loaded round in a closed action.

Better sights, hopefully a rugged set of peep and blade that give a decent sight radius and picture.

A lower street price.

And, last but not least, a set of choke tubes to fine tune buck patterns..

 

[Girodin]

Areas of improvement:

The trigger,

A tapco G2 is massive improvement over the stock trigger. It is a night and day difference. Further improvement can be made by polishing. If you want to really tune it you can put a shim in to eliminate take up and similarly you can mod it to eliminate over travel. The stock trigger is horrible the above set up (or even just the stock G2) is a huge improvement. A JTE main spring also improves the trigger.

Lack of a bolt hold open

If you simply want a bolt stop that is easy. They can be purchased for the early model guns that did not come with them or one can notch the safety lever. If you are refering to a last round bolt hold open that is another matter. A last round bolt hold open and a bolt release are supposedly in the works. There are working prototypes of each. ETA is still unknown however. They will be a very welcome addition to S12.

Distortion of a loaded round in a closed action.

It may be possible to eliminate or alleviate some of this by modifying the bolt. This is a mod you may want to have someone who knows what they are doing do. The degree to which material is removed from the bolt will relate to how much it alleviates the problem. This mod provides the added bonus of making the gun cycle more smoothly as well as making reloads on a closed bolt much easier.

Better sights, hopefully a rugged set of peep and blade that give a decent sight radius and picture.

The stock sights are pretty spartan and easily improved upon. There are various options out there but it sounds like the Krebs sights might be what you want.

A lower street price

All I can say to that is to shop around and do the work on it yourself.

And, last but not least, a set of choke tubes to fine tune buck patterns.

Chokes are still on the list of mods I will do on the project I have chronicled here on THR. There are multiple options and I am still trying to decide which route I want to go.
There is an adapter that screws onto the external threads and takes winchokes.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=43443

There is also an adapter that takes rem chokes IIRC. Another option is to have the barrel threaded internally. True chokes can be used if one wishes to keep the external threads. Other wise the threaded section must be cut off for the use of rem or win chokes. The other option that a lot of people use is the poly choke which will thread on the external threads. I almost forgot there is also the option of the factory chokes that thread onto the external threads. Each option has its pros and cons to my mind and as I said, I have yet to decide, but there are plenty of options.

The things on your list were also areas that I believe stand in need of improvement. I also have as prominent problem areas in need of attention, reloading on a closed bolt and the ergonomics of the safety. I plan to address both of these on the project gun I've been documenting here. To me the S12 is a diamond in the rough and by polishing it in ways that address these various short comings one can really make it shine.

For those who may not have seen it and are interested in the S12 here is a link to my current S12 project. I plan to update it soon with some new additions I have made and a range report. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=473230&highlight=saiga+12+project

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks. I'll keep this in mind if I get my own Saiga. There's a couple higher priority items on the gun list right now, and like I said, new guns are on hold until money improves.

Luckily, I have lots of guns already.

 

[Okiecruffler]

Oh my, Dave, say it ain't so?!? I run off for a while and come back to find this? Next I'll find out up is down, black is white, no this won't do at all.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

My shooting buddy has 3 of them and we shoot skeet and sporting clays with them. I find folks complaints about them to be interesting. My experience is that once they are broken in, it is a fine shotgun and works exceptionally reliably.

I think the original posters assessment is quite accurate. We shot a lot of slugs (I had about 200 left over from an ANWR trip back in the early 90's) and found it to be quite accurate at the 50 yrd line. You could easily hit a pistol target at that range with the red dot sight on it.

I liked his short barrel better then the long barreled one for handling. It just seemed to swing more like a rifle. If we see another short barreled one, I would buy it.

 

[nicksterdemus]

What makes them worth so much more than their sks counter part in 7.62x39 that's runnin' 'round $369?

Where's the almost 2 bills extra going?
--------
Seriously, I see the Saiga version of SKS($349 they call it a AK-47, but it looks like a SKS) and I see their S-12 ($539)and except for the size of the shells they look a lot alike, to me.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Sorry to give you conniptions, John. Still loving my 870s and B-gun. I am a bit surprised I like the thing as much as I do.

And up is still up, but sometimes less is more.

When the owner asked me to try it out and let him know what I thought, I thought I was doing him a favor.

Actually, he did me one also. Broadening horizons and all that.

Peter, while I don't regard Saigas as the best choice for clay giuns, whatever works and/or floats the boat.

Dunno, Nick. Marketing, maybe.

 

[Zundfolge]

Of all the guns I've sold over the years, the one I regret the most was the Tromix converted S12 I used to have (even though I got my Porsche back in the process).

Gotta get me another one some day.

 

[Girodin]

Seriously, I see the Saiga version of SKS($349 they call it a AK-47, but it looks like a SKS) and I see their S-12 ($539)and except for the size of the shells they look a lot alike, to me.

I first thought you were asking why a newly manufactured and imported 12 gauge shotgun that is completely unique in the market is more expensive than a milsurp rifle, the SKS. That is a no brainer.

I read more closely however and realized you were asking why the saiga 12 cost more than the 7.62x39, which cannot reasonably be refered to as saiga's version of a SKS. A SKS is different in every respect save caliber. It may look like an SKS in that both have more traditional stocks but that is about it.

Why does the S12 cost more? There are likely a few basic economic principles at work. The first is economies of scale. You may not think the saiga is much like an AK but it is. It is made in the same facotry that produces AKs for various militaries. Although the saiga has a few different parts many are the same and the fact they are produced en mass makes them cheaper.

A more significant factor is likely simple supply and demand. Think of how many variants of AKs there are. Further there are other rifles that are similar in nature. Lastly there are huge numbers of them. The S12 however is fairly unique. How many box fed shotguns are there? How many of those are semi auto? How many that are not classified as destructive devises? At any rate the S12 is IMHO the best of all the box feds. It is basically alone in its market. How many other variants of AK shotguns are there? How many of those are available for purchase in the US?

The S12 has gained popularity as of late. It used to be no one, even people into guns, knew what they were. Now it seems a lot more people are aware of them. Combine this with the fact that the S12 has always been more limited in supply. There have been a few different times where you couldn't find a dealer with them in stock and bone stock guns were selling for $800 on gunbroker.

Even if it cost Izhmash the exact same to produce the S12 as one of the carbines it would only make sense that it cost more.