Got my Remington R51 today

[barnbwt]

I saw the Mann site and those other reviews last week (I've been trolling the R51 hard for two weeks, now). I still have yet to see anything beyond a basic field strip. I really want a look at the safety and trigger system, and the surfaces the locking block surfs on.

I'm starting to wonder if the binding/no binding issue people are seeing is due to the upward and downward cam surfaces controlling the block too tightly. That is to say, when racking the slide, the upward cam pulls the block up into the downward cam surface a bit, resulting in binding. It'd be like a pin riding in a tapered slot that gets ever so slightly too narrow at one point before flaring out again. May not truly cause interference, but would make the pin's travel more difficult at that spot. From what I've read, the locking block and slide interaction is actually pretty tightly choreographed in the firing cycle (and therefore vulnerable to poorly executed machining)

TCB

 

[JRH6856]

From what I've read, the locking block and slide interaction is actually pretty tightly choreographed in the firing cycle (and therefore vulnerable to poorly executed machining.

That might make it vulnerable to over tuning as well if necessary angles and tolerances are not maintained. Surfaces bearing under high pressure generally need grease. Without it, they may bind. But they also will usually "wear in" with use and may wear in faster with a lighter lube. That's why dry-firing revolvers smooths out the action.

I have seen the process accelerated by "lubing" with rubbing compound, but don't recommend it unless you are willing to accept the possible damage that could also result.

 

[gene1]

JRH, I just go to ramworks.net & R51 & it comes right up. Look at his son stripping the gun in 17 seconds & putting it together in 29.

 

[barnbwt]

I would advise against rubbing compound for wear issues; the abrasive will embed in the softer of two materials as they work back and forth, and will continue to abrade even after cleaning or polishing for some time afterward (I thought about this method for loosening up my STGW57 bolt travel, but was advised against it for this reason)

The reason the motion may be tightly choreographed may be more to limit slide travel. Does the initial shift and the camming of the block plus extraction already make the slide move back more than a Browning action? Additional slop for clearance in the cams would translate into even longer slide travel by mechanical advantage (a .05" gap would translate into several times that in slide travel)

TCB

 

[JRH6856]

<deleted>

 

[JRH6856]

I would advise against rubbing compound for wear issues; the abrasive will embed in the softer of two materials as they work back and forth, and will continue to abrade even after cleaning or polishing for some time afterward (I thought about this method for loosening up my STGW57 bolt travel, but was advised against it for this reason)

The reason the motion may be tightly choreographed may be more to limit slide travel. Does the initial shift and the camming of the block plus extraction already make the slide move back more than a Browning action? Additional slop for clearance in the cams would translate into even longer slide travel by mechanical advantage (a .05" gap would translate into several times that in slide travel)

TCB

From what I've read, limiting initial slide travel is critical to prevent possible case blowout. The slide begins to move and takes the breechblock (and the case) with it while the bullet is still in the barrel and the pressure is still high. The breechblock contacts the camming surface of the frame and as it cams upward, it is delayed in its rearward travel long enough for the pressures to drop. Too much rearward motion too soon would allow more of the case to to leave the chamber leaving the case unsupported under pressure. Or, with the tapered case of the 9mm, could easily result in hot gasses escaping rearward, around the case.

The time of delay is critical, and making the camming action smoother could also decrease the time of delay.

 

[gym]

Rubbing compound should be cleaned off, after using it, either some Ballistol, "Hickok's favorite", or soapy water and a brush should do the trick. Thanks for the heads up on the blowback system on the CCP. I had a Walter and a seacamp. Those aside from revolvers are the only two handguns that had a stationary barrel. Both seemed accurate. I always thought that limiting barrel movement should make a weapon more accurate.
Too bad those heat issues are part of the side effects of the action.

 

[barnbwt]

I figure a fixed barrel least one less thing to worry about affecting accuracy, if nothing else. Some of the reports about the R51s not being notably more accurate than competitors I think probably stem from the barrels not being top notch (because why would they be?). Similarly, H&K is notorious for having unnecessarily nice barrels on all their stuff, which I think is a good chunk of the P7's famed accuracy (P210 as well)

"From what I've read, limiting initial slide travel is critical to prevent possible case blowout"
Yup, gotta keep those case heads supported while there's pressure. In the R51 I think I recall it was on the order of .05" which is no big deal. But that translates into the 1/8" of "easy" slide travel we hear about before the binding section. The long slide travel I was referring to was total slide travel; how far back you have to drag the thing to cycle the gun. The greater delay you put on the breech block before lifting it and then pulling it back at least as far as the rear of the magwell, the longer the distance the slide travels. I imagine that if it gets too big slide bite and misalignment on the rails start to become real problems (like if the slide is 3/4 off the back of the gun at its farthest).

I have no idea if the R51 is actually excessive in that way; it doesn't appear to have a super long slide draw for its length, but it's probably a bit longer than a Browning design's would be.

TCB

 

[JRH6856]

I have no idea if the R51 is actually excessive in that way; it doesn't appear to have a super long slide draw for its length, but it's probably a bit longer than a Browning design's would be.

I am really interested in getting an R51 in hand so I can compare it to my Llama IIIa. The overall dimensions are almost identical which would make comparing such design differences easier.

 

[Gun Master]

R51

All I'd like too know now is, "How does it shoot?"

 

[Phantom Captain]

Have you read the whole thread?? I thought I answered that earlier.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Not to thrilled about the new Remington gun.

At first, you can bet I was. Now that it's out I'm not liking what I'm hearing. The gun is also pretty big for a 7+1 9mm... not so sure I'd pick this over a Glock 26 or something.

My LGS should be on the lookout for one of these for me. I'd like to handle one and thoroughly inspect it before I'd ever buy one.

 

[mooner]

Had some free time today and just checked out another sample. This one would lock the slide back without a magazine inserted. Also the locking block (or whatever the round stainless steel part is visible at the front of the ejection port) was all scratched up - presumably from rough machining on the slide)

As I said in my previous post, I really wanted to like this gun. After handing 2 samples I am done. It will most likely be a S&W Shield if/when I decide to get a single stack 9mm.

The designers of this gun have to be very disappointed in Remington's execution (in more than one way) of this product.

 

[hardluk1]

gunmaster , drive on over to Burnsville nc and you can shot my wifes. hehehe


JRH Do you know the size of a kahr cw9?? From the grip forward there the same + or - a 1/8" heres a rear and side view, note again the over hang , extra length is at the rear.




How accurate is it. 200 rounds in 30 minutes with me loading too shot at 10yards. That's a 2" by 4 hole. with a few fliers at the end do to being tired by then.


Now for all those that do not like the pistol . Stop . Find what you do like , buy it , shot it.

Till you can walk in and touch a R51 your speculating .

If I pated attention to forum nay sayers I would never have bought the kahrs that I carry and trust.

 

[mooner]

Hardluk,

Really glad you like yours. I really hope Remington gets them sorted out, as I think they could be great. The bore axis appears amazingly low.

I have touched two of them. From my sample size of two - no way. Unfortunately I have not shot one, but from what I have seen I have little desire to search on out.

 

[JRH6856]

Had some free time today and just checked out another sample. This one would lock the slide back without a magazine inserted.

According to the Richard Mann reviews referred to earlier in this thread, that is a sign of the slide stop being inserted incorrectly during reassembly.

Also the locking block (or whatever the round stainless steel part is visible at the front of the ejection port) was all scratched up - presumably from rough machining on the slide)

Given the incorrect assembly indicated by the slide stop, this could also be due to mishandling during a breakdown and reassembly by a heavy-handed employee or customer.

Just a thought.

 

[Gun Master]

R51 Review

Have you read the whole thread?? I thought I answered that earlier.

You were right. I scanned the thread too hastily. You gave an excellent review of the R51 on post # 66. Also hardluk1 contributed some very good info. Thanks to you both (and others).

 

[zerobarrier]

Does anyone know about problems with the r51 and how to fix them. I got one for my wife and she really likes it as do I. It shoots very nicely just a few problems with ours. Every now and then after firing a few rounds the slide will not go all the way forward for the next shot, it stops about 1/8 early and will allow the trigger to be pulled, firing pin to release, but the firing pin is to far away to hit the primer, so we have to unchamber the round and then rechamber and it works fine. Also every now and then the last round hold open feature will hold the slide open with 1 round left in the magazine. any ideas?

Is it possible that it is still in the break in period? Only about 100rds thru it so far

 

[m0par]

Can any of the owners verify what surfaces in the gun are binding/grating?

Specifically,
-The locking lug surfaces of the bolt and frame
-The camming surfaces on the bolt and slide that lift and lock the bolt

And whether there are tooling marks visible/felt on these features. Sharpie can help show them as well as any wear/galling

Also, if your gun is hard to initially unlock (lifting of the bolt) what kind of lube was on the bolt block; oil or grease and where.

Mine is nowhere near as bad as the one in the MAC video, but there is no way to rack it with a couple of fingers like the SHOT video I've seen.

In my sample-of-one, the breech block surfaces look to have been machined with a dremel, and the forward-facing ramps are really chewed up looking. The slide appears to be well machined.

The breech block was heavily lubed with a light grease from the factory.

In addition, the catching/rough action of the slide on mine is due in large part to the disconnector.

It is a stamped steel sheetmetal piece that rides up and down on 2 cross pins. The stamped holes for the cross pins are elongated to allow for vertical movement.

I can't see where the disconnector is rubbing or catching, but I put the empty slide on the frame, and it is very hard to rack at the points where the disconnector is being depressed, especially where first contact is made when the slide begins its rearward travel.

I don't know if the holes for the pins are too wide, which may allow for the disconnector to bind instead of smoothy ride up and down, but it is excessively hard to push down, especially when pushing down and back (like when the slide is moving rearward). Mine pushes down easier when pushing down and forward (like when the slide is traveling forward).

I haven't shot mine yet. I hope to put a couple hundred rounds through it this weekend to see how it fares. I'm looking at sending it back though, if it doesn't smooth out.

 

[gym]

It's new, they rushed, this is what happens. You get some good ones and some not so good. Wait a year.

 

[barnbwt]

Sounds like we're tracking down the problems, at least. The local Cabelas supposedly has one so maybe I'll finally be able to lay my grabbers on one.

EDIT: Missed it by literally 5 minutes; I at least saw the darn thing being cleared/wiped down/boxed up by the staff for an older gentleman. The staff were racking the slide a few times, I could tell it was sticking or staging a bit. No slide catch or return-to-battery issues that I could tell, though. Surprisingly, it looked pretty much the same and as nice as any photos I've seen (not as nice as the polished-blue CAD renderings, though ). Kinda cool how cameras take photo-realistic pictures nowadays, isn't it . Oh, yeah, Bass Pro sold their two within hours this morning as well, apparently. The size is definitely larger than photos make it look (that's true for everything, though, so I don't know why people are surprised), mainly that it looks "gun sized," as opposed to being "large" or "small." The skinny slide profile due to the barrel-centric spring causes the whole thing to scale down slightly as an optical illusion, I think. For the same reason, SIGs always seem smaller than I think they should be, since their fat slides make the gun look chunky.

I read an interesting post on another thread that I thought provided an interesting reality check for those disappointed with the finish;

"Colt 1911's cost around $1,000, SIG P-Series guns cost around $900, and the Browning Hi-Power is right in that range. That's what metal guns cost, at least those made in the US or western Europe."
Yet the R51 is less than half that (nearly 1/3rd). They wouldn't let me take the gun apart while the guy's 4473 went thru (I tried ) and didn't know anything about it themselves, but the few pictures I've seen of the guts online don't lead me to believe there's a whole lot less to the design's manufacture than a 1911. Imagine what a 300$ dealer-cost 1911 would be like, and combine that with a design that's less tolerant of poor machining

I'm not disillusioned, yet. I just think Remington doesn't have a clue how to execute a new product anymore. The prices being paid for the early ugly ducklings demonstrate clearly that the market for a 5-600$ R51 was there, and would have easily given Remington the margin to make the gun as nice as their R1 1911s have become. Somehow, their marketing guys became convinced that a nice gun that's perceived as 'slightly expensive' would fail, where a cheap/cost-competitive gun that's rapidly soiling its (and the Pedersen action's) reputation would succeed. Or maybe the haters are right, and they really aren't capable of good quality anymore, and had no choice but to then make the gun as cheaply as possible . I'd prefer not to think that, since the R1's are reportedly very good executions of the 1911.

Maybe they need to find whoever it was they put in charge of the R1 to fix its teething problems, and have him tackle the R51 manufacturing group?

Still not nearly enough pictures or video of one of these being taken apart and the pieces looked at/analyzed. This is (still) the most informative photo of the breech block I can find;

And it's still just a field strip. I also just noticed on Jeff Quinn's review, that there are close ups of the slide and frame, but not the breech block...it's a conspiracy, I say!

TCB

 

[Gun Master]

R51 Conspiracy

Aye! Me thought so. 'Twas so all along. Batten the hatches, mates. 'Twill be a long stormy haul. No one'll git the best o' Long John Gun Master!

 

[Phantom Captain]

Ok, here's what I experienced on first purchasing mine.

When I bought it I thought it was quite sticky and very hard to rack too. I took it home and immediately took it apart. The grease inside was sticky and it hadn't been cleaned since being fired at the factory so it was filthy inside. Once I cleaned everything out, re-oiled and re-greased mine it smoothed right out. Now that I've put 130 rounds through it, cleaned it again and re-greased again it's even smoother.

I'm expecting it to run entirely smooth once it's gone through the customary 500 round break-in period. My wife can rack the R51 pretty much easier than any other handgun we've had excepting a .32 Beretta Tomcat.

The pistol really needs to be cleaned, oiled and greased before you judge the way it racks and how sticky it is out of the box.

Finally, upon reassembly I did once get the slide-stop in wrong and it's instantly recognizable because, as someone stated above, the slide stays open with no magazine if it's inserted wrong. It's a simple fix, just remove the slide stop again and make sure the spring is set properly. No problems then and all works well.

I'm carrying mine already and love it for it's slimness and size.

Again, I'm really really liking mine.

 

[JohnnyBravo]

In depth video of the R51 by a guy who is very knowledgeable of the original model 51.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47ruE_UHyvs&list=UUOvuoPY-nG-978Nmksc3-eQ&feature=share&index=8

 

[Mitlov]

"Colt 1911's cost around $1,000, SIG P-Series guns cost around $900, and the Browning Hi-Power is right in that range. That's what metal guns cost, at least those made in the US or western Europe."
Yet the R51 is less than half that (nearly 1/3rd

Remington's US-made 1911 has an MSRP of $599 and Remtington is currently advertising $75 cash-back with the purchase of any 1911 R1...so there's a metal gun that's made in the USA and costs $525.