Got some questions on "THE RIFLE" for me.

[P.B.Walsh]

Hi, me again with another noobish question. I am thinking about saving up for "THE RIFLE" and have a few questions pertaining to the three fine cartriges; .223, .308, and the 30-06, and "THE" action; single shot or DBM.

First, the action.

If you had to have ONE rifle (and you knew the particular rifle was going to be a bolt action) would you rather have a single shot or a DBM action.

Of couse I made a "pros and cons" list.

Single shot-

Pros- Stiffer reciver, would this allow a heavier barrel with lees stress on the reciver?
Encourages better shot placement

Cons- Not good for rapid follow up shots


DBM (Surgeon or Badger for example)

Pros- Very fast follow up shots
"It's better to have the extra 9 rounds and not need them, than need them and not have them"
Better stock selection?

Cons- Not as stiff as an action as a single shot
encourages less precision shot placement because you still have 4-9 rounds left in the magazine

Ok, thats one question down, now to the other (if you have even read this far, I sincerly thank you for your time).

I know that a .308 in a 20" barrel can effectively get to 1k, and I know a 30-06 can do it to. But what are some of ya'lls average velocities from a .308 in a 20", 18", and 16" barrels, and a 30-06 in a 20", 18", 16" barrels. Preferably in a Kreiger barrel.

Also, what are ya'lls average velocities in a .223 20", 18", and 16" barrels?

Thank you so much, trying to get stuff all sorted out before I take even a half of a step.

Oh, before I forget, this rifle will be used for anything and everything, from plinking to hunting, so that kind of rules the .223 out, so the .223 question was just for my information.

One more thing, can you shoot a 5.56x45mm NATO in a .223 chamber (such as a .223 LTR) safely? I know you can't with an AR-15, just wanted to know about bolt guns also just to be on the safe side.


Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[USSR]

I know that a .308 in a 20" barrel can effectively get to 1k...

With some loads it will, with others it won't. Once you shorten the barrel that much on a rifle chambered for a round such as the .308, which doesn't have all that much room for powder, keeping the bullet from going transonic at 1k requires some judicious reloading and a fast barrel. To answer your original question, if I intended to only shoot benchrest competition, I would go with the single-shot action, but for all other activities I would go with a magazine fed boltgun. IMHO, as much as you don't want to go with a 18" or especially 16" barrel with a .308, you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY do not want to go with a 20", 18", or 16" barrel with a .30-06. The fireball coming out the muzzle would be awesome, while your loss in velocity would be disheartening. I have a 26" Krieger on my .30-06, and am able to reach 2900fps with a 190SMK, and 2950fps with 178gr Amax bullets. My rule for the .308 is nothing less than 22", and 24" for the .30-06. Probably not what you want to hear, but that's my take on it.

Don

 

[P.B.Walsh]

What is you used a fast burning powder with the 30-06? That's honestly what I thought about the 30-06.

What about the .223? Can you shoot 5.56 out of a .223 bolt-action?

How much more of an advantage in stiffness will a single shot have over a DBM?

And I would intend to use a suppresor or flash suppesor in that matters.

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[highorder]

Is it way out of line to say that I prefer the blind box magazine to a detachable?

If you can feed it from stripper clips, all the better.

Detachable mags are usually crap, unless they aren't crap, then they cost hundreds of dollars like the Badger stuff. I love the simplicity of the Mauser action and it's copies. The feed rails are integral to the action, not relying on any interface of two seperate parts.

 

[Boba Fett]

Can't say about a 30-06, but read these pages for info on shortening the 308:

http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/
http://www.sniperschool.com/barrel-length-revisited/
http://www.sniperschool.com/Performance_Package.html

Also read the info on the forum:
http://www.sniperinfo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1&highlight=18+barrel

Here's a quote from some tests one of the guys did:

Thought this would be nice to know. Went to the range and tested out some different length barrels. Heres the findings!

90 Deg. 85% Rel Hum, 110' ASL, Baro (not recorded) (M118LR Lake City)

Remington 700 PSS 26" Low 2453 Hi 2794 Avg 2605

Remy 700 (GPS 18") Low 2827 Hi 2980 Avg 2905

G.A.P. Crusader 20" Low 2540 Hi 2594 Avg 2567

Tikka T3 20" Low 2526 Hi 2587 Avg 2552

I plan to cut my Savage 10FCP down to 18" someday soon.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

This rifle will ve dropped into a Mcree chaisse, and comes with the excelent AICS magazines, no bottom metal to buy. If you have a scope, the stripper clips are out of the question, and from what I read, AICS magazines are pretty darn good.

Do blind magazines have their place, yes the do. But I'd rather have a DBM if I were to have a repeater action.

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[USSR]

What is you used a fast burning powder with the 30-06? That's honestly what I thought about the 30-06.

Defeats the purpose of getting a .30-06. Just get a .308 in a short action.

What about the .223? Can you shoot 5.56 out of a .223 bolt-action?

Can't comment. Don't have a poodle shooter.

How much more of an advantage in stiffness will a single shot have over a DBM?

Something that will only be seen in benchrest competition.

And I would intend to use a suppresor or flash suppesor in that matters.

Can't comment, as suppressors aren't legal where I live.

Don

 

[P.B.Walsh]

I was also thinking the same thing about the single shot actions also, that it is something that I will not be about to tell. Single shots are just cool, or mabey I play Gears of War, and that's probally when I fell in love with the single shotbolt-actions rifle.

Thanks, and please keep up the great information,
P.B.Walsh

 

[Maverick223]

If you want a short, accurate turn bolt, save your pennies for a Desert Tactical SRS. You can order one in .308 with a 22" Krieger and the OAL will only clock in at about 30" long (without LOP spacers, adds up to 1.5" if required). It is also available in .243, which may be a better fit for you (better long range characteristics), but it comes standard with a 26" bbl, making it about 34" long. It has a little heft (about 10lbs for the .308, and about 12lbs for the .243, .300WM, and .338LM), but that is not necessarily a bad thing in a long range platform.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Yes, I have thought about the SRS, just going through all of my options to see which is best for me.

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well if by "THE RIFLE", you mean "THE ONE RIFLE" for you, then answer (of course) is neither one of the two *extremes* that you mention; the single shot turnbolt or the high capacity magazine turnbolt. The answer is the perfect goldilocks compromise that people realized decades ago was the best choice, and that's a *standard* turnbolt with a fixed box magazine holding 3+1, 4+1, or 5+1. 98% of the time, you will only need one shot. Of the remaining 2%, 99.99% of THOSE times you will need only the 2nd shot. Whatever tiny % remains would you need the 3rd or more. So you WILL have the rapid-2nd-shot capability, but will NOT have a magazine to lose or to stick out and interfere with your shot and your ergos.

But, given the crazy long precision-rifle distances that you're contemplating, I'd opt for the single shot if I had to choose between the two in that false dichotomy.

Just my .002.

Caliber, well that's a can of worms, of course... But obviously, if you're buying an off the shelf precision rig or a "semi-custom" rig, the caliber choice will be .308 because that's usually the only caliber they are offered in; sometimes .300 winmag. Goodness only knows why consumers don't demand that they be offered in calibers clearly superior to .308 for long range work.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

I see your point Dr., but the problem is (correct me if I'm wrong) is that top custom actions (Surgeon, Badger) are made to run with the AICS magazines not blind box magazines, and the only other option is a single shot. Please correct me if I am wrong.

And single shots or BDL style actions I would also think are better for positional shooting, and over all comfort, without something else weighing you rifle down and not really needed. The DBM is just there for "just in case" and honestly, the is the only true merit of the DBM.

What are some of ya'll opinions on a single shot vs. a BDL?

Thanks, and for caliber I think that I will stick with the .308 Winchester because of avalibility and knowledge of the round.

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[Maverick223]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

You are incorrect, both can be fitted to just about any Rem. 700 style stock. Most Badger rifles are not in AICS, but are typically in a McMillan or similar. The AICS is a good system and personally would be my first choice for a target gun built upon the 700 action. I like a detachable box magazine for target and plinking, but despise them for hunting. For this use they have the potential to cause problems (fall out if not seated properly, knocked out, get damaged) and they just tend to get in the way. Besides, like the Doc. said they just aren't needed, as a standard bolt rifle has plenty of capacity for hunting.

EDITED TO ADD: Why not rebarrel (I would go with .260Rem.) and accurize the 700 that you already have, and purchase another rifle (.30-06 or other suitable hunting cartridge) for a dedicated hunting rifle. Then you will have the one gun you need for either purpose...granted it will be with two separate rifles, but that is a much better solution IMO. I believe that if you try to compromise (with one multi-purpose rifle), you will likely find that you have a rifle that will work, but doesn't really suit either purpose very well.

 

[L.Puckett]

I would think that using the Surgeon short action the mag/single stiffness issue would be negligible. The receiver is made of a higher quality steel with the picatinny rail being part of the receiver. Add the deeper barrel tenon threading and you"ve reduced a good bit of flex out of the system.

A 20 inch FAST barrel will make 1000yrds when loaded properly, but when you end up shooting at a low altitude on a cold, low humidity day it sure is nice to have 24-26 inches to make it fly way down yonder.

LP

 

[P.B.Walsh]

You are incorrect, both can be fitted to just about any Rem. 700 style stock. Most Badger rifles are not in AICS, but are typically in a McMillan or similar.

I am not worried aboit the stock, I know I can use one of those excellent stocks. I am wondering about the triggerguard, such as a D.D. Ross or a Badger Ordnace M4. I just e-mailed both Badger Ordnace and Surgeon about this.

And I cannot afford 2 rifles when 1 can serve 2 purposes, besides I am going to chop my current '700 in .308 down to 16.5"-17" after deer season because where I hunt, shots farther than 150 yards are uncommon.

This rifle will do alot of things well, but nothing perfect, I understand that, but it will ve way more accurate than I could ever hope to be.

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[Maverick223]

I am not worried aboit the stock, I know I can use one of those excellent stocks. I am wondering about the triggerguard, such as a D.D. Ross or a Badger Ordnace M4. I just e-mailed both Badger Ordnace and Surgeon about this.

I am 99% positive that you can use a standard blind magazine.

And I cannot afford 2 rifles when 1 can serve 2 purposes, besides I am going to chop my current '700 in .308 down to 16.5"-17" after deer season because where I hunt, shots farther than 150 yards are uncommon.

I am not suggesting that you purchase 2 rifles, only that you retain the one that you have and use it for one use (either hunting or target use) and purchase another rifle dedicated to the other task...or are you suggesting that you plan to sell the 700 that you already own after cutting the barrel?

 

[P.B.Walsh]

No, I will never sell this rifle (the one I'm cutting down) because it is my first centerfire rifle, it will always be with me. I see what you mean now. I quess the one I currently have would be my hunting rig, and the other one will be used for other task including hunting.

Are you sure about the big ol' Badger being able to accomodate an M4 triggerguard? Thats good/great news!! Even though I bet that it would be a PITA to load round be round, considering the geomertry of the Abrams like action.

Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[blackops]

I would recommend the Surgeon Remedy. Probably because I want to marry it. Surgeon repeater, Krieger, and mc A5. Also sub moa out to a mile with a 338 lap. Just a nasty rifle all around and that is a rifle for any man who is a gun enthusiast. Obviously doesn’t fit every element of your request, but I would like to know someone who owns one at least!

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Another stock option...

http://www.jallenenterprises.com/jae700rsa.htm

 

[Maverick223]

I see what you mean now. I quess the one I currently have would be my hunting rig, and the other one will be used for other task including hunting.

Bingo.

Are you sure about the big ol' Badger being able to accomodate an M4 triggerguard?

No, but I am 99% sure that I have seen a blind magazine in a surgeon, so I would surmise that it would work just fine...but if I were you I'd go the detachable box route for the target gun. Much easier to reload, and doesn't get in the way IMO.

Another stock option...

Wow, I didn't realize that JAE made a 700 stock. Their stock for the M14 is super ergonomic, and looks identical, I bet this one is too. Not a bad price either (when compared to AICS).

 

[P.B.Walsh]

The JAE is nice, but the big selling point for the Mcree is that I can readily mount BUIS, it folds, AR-15 pistol grip, modular,......

Thats nice to know about Surgeon, what about Badger Ordnance?


Oh, I can't affort the .338LM, I'm trying to sell a 7mm Rem. Mag. Right now because of the expensive bullets.
Thanks,
P.B.Walsh

 

[Maverick223]

Thats nice to know about Surgeon, what about Badger Ordnance?

Not positive about Badger, but hopefully both will send you a return e-mail and confirm my beliefs.

Oh, I can't [afford] the .338LM, I'm trying to sell a 7mm Rem. Mag. Right now because of the expensive bullets.

No offense, but I doubt that you are good enough to need the .338LM. Don't feel bad because i'm not either. I considered getting one, but soon decided that the .300WM would suit my short term goals better, and I can rebarrel (and order a new bolt and magazine) to .338LM at any time. Honestly, I think it will be a long time, if I ever decide to go that route. Even reloading is expensive, and I despise a muzzle brake (which would be necessary for accuracy). OTOH, I like 7mm RM, but I reload, so my cost is a bit less than average. For cheap ammo for the 7mm (not match by any stretch) you can get Fed. PP at Walmart for about $18.00/20.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Yea, a good .22 LR can outshoot me, My .308 is more accurate than I am.