My First AR -- Help Me Pick, Please!

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axiom

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I'm facing several big decisions.

1) Piston or D.I.
I understand the pros of D.I. to be that it is slightly simpler and slightly lighter. It is also on average cheaper and has many more manufacturers to choose from. On the other hand, I understand the pros of a modern Piston to be that it doesn't allow hot dirty air into the main parts of the rifle, it isolates them to a piston chamber which makes it significantly easier to clean, makes its cleaning to be required far less often, and can lengthen the service life of the rifle because as the main parts run cooler, they will run longer. Additionally, I have read several accounts of piston ARs exhibiting less recoil than a similar D.I. system.

2) .223 or .308
This is a highly debated and controversial topic, but I'd like to introduce a different perspective. The only reason I'm considering the .308 over the .223 is because I don't have access to a full-auto .223 caliber rifle. In any of a number of SHTF scenarios, one might be faced with adversaries that are all armed with M4/M16 type rifles. Obviously the .308 has more power per shot, roughly, I believe, three times the kinetic energy. That's about the same kinetic energy that comes out of an M16s three round burst of .223 ammo. Obviously, the military chose to employ a three-round burst of .223 over semi-auto fire of .223 for a reason. But, since I don't have access to those, I'm thinking I can bridge the gap with a .308. I well understand that .223 ammo is cheaper, lighter, and has far less recoil, but my main priority is having sufficient firepower otherwise that is all irrelevant.

3) Barrel Length: 16" 18" or 20"
Given my current location, I cannot own anything NFA, otherwise I would buy a 10.5" SBR with a silencer, full-auto in .223. Being that I can't own a SBR or a silencer, I'm thinking I should go with 18" (if I go .223) or 20" (if I go .308") and go ahead and take advantage of the extra barrel length, giving me more FPS and less muzzle flash, etc.

4) Manufacturer - Model - Caliber - Barrel Lenth - Operation
LaRue Tactical - Stealth Sniper - .223 - 18" - D.I.
Robinson - XCR - .223 - 18" - Piston
LaRue Tactical - OBR - .308 - 20" - D.I.
LWRC International - REPR - .308 - 20" - Piston

Most of these rifles are available in different lengths. For example, the .308s are available in 18" and 16". The .223s are also available in 16". Based on the reasoning above, however, I think I'd be most satisfied with one of these four. I'm completely undecided though! I might end up getting a .308 in 16" for all I know! If anyone could offer any substantiated input or additional insight, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks in advance.
 
LWRC's are pretty damn nice, can't go wrong. IMHO the Ruger 556 is pretty nice to and priced pretty well.

I never shot the Ruger but I looked at one pretty well at a gun store and was impressed. You could buy two Rugers for what a Repr will cost you.
 
Hatterasguy, the Ruger SR 556 was of definite interest to me. But, however, being that I am leaning towards an 18" barrel, I sort of wrote it off because it only comes in 16" I believe. It is still on my long list though. Thanks!
 
piston, .223, and 16". I'm going to get a cmmg one... sooner rather than later I hope ;D
 
For a first one, follow the Keep It Simple rule.

DI, 5.56, 16 inch, by Colt, BM, RRA, DPMS, Stag, etc

Just plain old AR, $700-1000 range.

Then figure out what you like, don't like, and want to change.

You are looking at high end boutique rifles in kind of a random pattern of features, calibers etc.

Which to me says you don't really know exactly what you want yet so I'd go with one of the most common configurations and shoot that for a while.
 
I'd look into a Del-ton Kit. Buy yourself a stripped lower and get the rest from Del-ton and put it together yourself. You'll learn a lot about the rifle and get a lot of satisfaction out of it.
 
Sprice, thanks! I just looked into CMMG. A piston AR for under $1000, that's definitely an option of interest.

TexasRifleman, I feel what you're saying, start out with something that's very widely used and go from there.

HKGuns, that is also another great option. I could really use the experience of doing some assembly and the price of those kits are very enticing!
 
TexasRifleman, I feel what you're saying, start out with something that's very widely used and go from there.
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That's what I did anyway. When I decided to get an AR a few years ago I looked around and was just overloaded with all the choices. I had NO idea what I wanted. Now there are even more choices with all the piston stuff.

TOO many choices :)
 
I agree with texasrifleman. I'd start with a plane-jane AR-colt or some other reputable manufacturer-and go from there. The beauty of the AR platform is its ability to be changed into whatever your heart desires it to be. From there you can add optics, free float kits, rails, upgraded triggers, or just about anything else you can think of.

As for .223 vs. .308-I suggest .223. In a SHTF situation I believe .223 will be as or more available as .308, and lighter and thus more rounds. If you settle on .308, with your budget you could easily buy an M1a. I know you're asking for AR-style of rifles, but I believe in keeping AR's light and handy and saving .308's for longer-range engagements.
 
Let's say I was planning on shooting 2 - 3 thousand rounds per year, most of which would be cheap practice ammo, perhaps Wolf. Do you think a DI rifle would run into many problems?

I have actually read that the XCR and the SR 556 don't reliably feed Wolf.
 
1) Piston or D.I.
I understand the pros of D.I. to be that it is slightly simpler and slightly lighter. It is also on average cheaper and has many more manufacturers to choose from. On the other hand, I understand the pros of a modern Piston to be that it doesn't allow hot dirty air into the main parts of the rifle, it isolates them to a piston chamber which makes it significantly easier to clean, makes its cleaning to be required far less often, and can lengthen the service life of the rifle because as the main parts run cooler, they will run longer. Additionally, I have read several accounts of piston ARs exhibiting less recoil than a similar D.I. system.
Click to expand...
If a piston revs your engine, by all means get one. That said, DI is a fine operating system, and is plenty adequate. People who have so many problems with DI don't understand how to run it. AR's don't need to be clean, they need to be WET. A DI gun will run for a long time without being cleaned, so long as you run it wet. Sustained rate of fire for the M16 is 15 rounds per minute. That means you can pull the trigger every 4 seconds, indefinitely, without damaging the weapon with heat. Springs may wear out after thousands of rounds, but you won't ruin the rifle with dirty combustion gas in the receiver.

2) .223 or .308
This is a highly debated and controversial topic, but I'd like to introduce a different perspective. The only reason I'm considering the .308 over the .223 is because I don't have access to a full-auto .223 caliber rifle. In any of a number of SHTF scenarios, one might be faced with adversaries that are all armed with M4/M16 type rifles. Obviously the .308 has more power per shot, roughly, I believe, three times the kinetic energy. That's about the same kinetic energy that comes out of an M16s three round burst of .223 ammo. Obviously, the military chose to employ a three-round burst of .223 over semi-auto fire of .223 for a reason. But, since I don't have access to those, I'm thinking I can bridge the gap with a .308. I well understand that .223 ammo is cheaper, lighter, and has far less recoil, but my main priority is having sufficient firepower otherwise that is all irrelevant.
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Look at the people who are PAID to go into "SHTF" situations (i.e., COMBAT). They're doing the job with 5.56 NATO. Stop looking at muzzle energy numbers, and start paying attention to "what can I get hits with, and how many hits can I get with it". You get to pull the trigger many more times for equal weights of .223 and .308, and you get to stoke your boom-stick with 30 rounds of .223 versus 20 rounds of .308. Also, the military did not "choose 3 round burst over semi-auto". Semi is the preferred selector position for most engagements. 3-rd-burst is for the rare "oh ****e" situations, and I think it's a cop-out for teaching proper trigger control with a S-1-A fire control group.

3) Barrel Length: 16" 18" or 20"
Given my current location, I cannot own anything NFA, otherwise I would buy a 10.5" SBR with a silencer, full-auto in .223. Being that I can't own a SBR or a silencer, I'm thinking I should go with 18" (if I go .223) or 20" (if I go .308") and go ahead and take advantage of the extra barrel length, giving me more FPS and less muzzle flash, etc.
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16" or 14.5" with a pinned muzzle device to make 16+" is the standard for non-NFA defensive carbines these days. FYI, there is a lot of paperwork and money that goes into NFA stuff. You don't just go out and get it. This full auto .223 you seem to think you could get your hands on will run you around $16,000+. If you have that kind of money at your discretion, I suggest you move to an NFA-friendly state and enjoy the hell out of it.

4) Manufacturer - Model - Caliber - Barrel Lenth - Operation
LaRue Tactical - Stealth Sniper - .223 - 18" - D.I.
Robinson - XCR - .223 - 18" - Piston
LaRue Tactical - OBR - .308 - 20" - D.I.
LWRC International - REPR - .308 - 20" - Piston
Click to expand...
Those would all be very fine rifles. The XCR isn't an AR pattern rifle, though.

Most of these rifles are available in different lengths. For example, the .308s are available in 18" and 16". The .223s are also available in 16". Based on the reasoning above, however, I think I'd be most satisfied with one of these four. I'm completely undecided though! I might end up getting a .308 in 16" for all I know! If anyone could offer any substantiated input or additional insight, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks in advance.
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16" is fine for .223. As I said, it's the standard for non-NFA defensive guns. I think 16" is a bit short for .308, it gets very loud. 18" or 20" would be a better choice there.
 
Guns and more, thanks, I read every word of that guide. It was very helpful.

MrCleanOK, firstly thanks for your responses. By "run it wet" are you talking about lubrication or...? Regardless, if that is something that is obviated by a piston operated system, that is yet another reason to go with piston. Also, you mentioned a sustained rate of fire on the M16 of 15 rds/min. If that carries over to a typical DI AR, that would be yet another reason to go with piston, because I find that to be quite slow, and I'm pretty sure the quality piston system can dissipate heat such that it would allow for much more than 15 rds/min.

As for caliber, I guess another way for me to state my decision would be, being that I can't purchase a full-auto .223 weapon (which is what those who are "paid to go into SHTF situations" use) I am obviously at a disadvantage in certain situations, whatever they may be. Would using a .308 help me to overcome those disadvantages?

Also, I'm not familiar with what a "pattern rifle" is. Does that refer to it's accuracy?

Thanks!
 
Axiom... Remember that there is no "milspec" for a piston rifle. Each company uses there own design of piston. So should the SHTF, you have no spare parts.

If you buy a good DI AR like a Colt 6920 or a Noveske, etc... it will digest several thousand rounds a year with ease. Dont buy into the piston hype that the DI rifles heat up and break regularly. The military uses them.

Im not saying pistons are bad just that they are not the end all that some companies (HK) makes them out to be.

Also neither the Army or Marine Corp train their Soldiers or Marines to use anything but the semi selection on an M16/M4. I spent a good amount of time overseas fighting and never felt the need to use the burst option on a rifle.

The .223/5.56 is an excellent anti personnel cartridge. The .308 does work better at range but anything within a couple hundred yards the 5.56 is fine.

What MrCleanOK meant was the Robinson is not an "AR pattern" rifle. It is Robinson's own proprietary design. Closer to an AR-180 from what Ive heard. "AR" refers to the civilian rifles modeled after the M16.
 
Gotta agree w/ TexasRifleman... If you are making your 1st AR purchase, keep it simple. I was overwhelmed by all the EBR's out there and prices were ridiculous right after 'the Election'. A local gunstore hooked me up w/ a brand new DPMS AR-15 A2 Light weight for $795 while his competition wanted $1,500 for the EXACT same model. Love that little rifle. As accurate or more so than either of my friends Bushmasters. It helped me get my feet wet and understand the build. Next I will get a Spike's lower and add what I want from there. As a side note I also agree w/ the majority of the posts about sticking w/ a DI operated rifle... At least for the time being. I prefer to let others jump on the band wagon and smooth out any wrinkles w/ new products before I spend my hard earned $$$. Best wishes!
 
MrCleanOK, firstly thanks for your responses. By "run it wet" are you talking about lubrication or...? Regardless, if that is something that is obviated by a piston operated system, that is yet another reason to go with piston.
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"Run it wet" refers to lubrication, and using a piston system will not circumvent that. AR rifles are built with close tolerances in the upper receiver, and need to be well lubricated to cycle reliably. With a piston, you'll probably get longer lubrication intervals because the combustion gas in the action will eventually dry lube up in a DI gun. When the required lubrication is a few drops into the bolt carrier vent holes, and a few drops on the bolt face every couple hundred rounds I don't consider that an issue.

Also, you mentioned a sustained rate of fire on the M16 of 15 rds/min. If that carries over to a typical DI AR, that would be yet another reason to go with piston, because I find that to be quite slow, and I'm pretty sure the quality piston system can dissipate heat such that it would allow for much more than 15 rds/min.
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Sustained rate of fire is the rate of fire that the gun can sustain indefinitely, i.e. 15 rounds per minute, every minute of the day, every day of the year until the rifle runs out of lube, ammo or a critical spring suffers fatigue failure. They can go faster than that, and the part that usually fails in repeated full-auto mag dump exercises is the gas tube, not something in side the receiver. The gun will still function, but as a straight-pull bolt action. The simple fact is, you can't go that fast with a semi rifle. You'd wear your little trigger finger out. Yes, if you want to expend that much ammo, your gun will get "owie" hot, but not "failure" hot. BTW, most of the heat that rifles put out is from the chamber, not combustion gases in the action. DI rifles and piston rifles both have chambers.

As for caliber, I guess another way for me to state my decision would be, being that I can't purchase a full-auto .223 weapon (which is what those who are "paid to go into SHTF situations" use) I am obviously at a disadvantage in certain situations, whatever they may be. Would using a .308 help me to overcome those disadvantages?
Click to expand...
No. The disadvantage you would find yourself at would be a disparity in training and strength of numbers, and bigger bullets wouldn't help that.
 
My First AR -- Help Me Pick, Please!



1) Piston or D.I.
Piston runs cleaner. But the ones i've seen are problematic. A GOOD DI tier1 Ar-15 is more reliable than a piston AR. Putting a piston conversion on a DI AR reduced accuracy. Our DI guns shoot 1/4" smaller groups at 100yds.

Go DI for your Ar-15's. Keep them oiled wet. It's cheaper, more reliable, and more accurate. Just have to clean them a little more often. I clean mine after each shooting trip/weekend. AR's are best kept simple. Good quality parts are needed, not fancy piston setups.

If you want a piston gun get a FN Scar, FN FS2000, Sig 556 which are desighned for piston operation right from the start. Those are all fine guns that make use of a piston system better than a converted AR desighn. The Scar reminds me of someone trying to add AK piston and rail reliability to an AR type desighn.

2) .223 or .308
.556 has better heavy rounds (65-70g) for home defense now. The round has evolved a bit and its plenty effective. It's cheaper to own and shoot a .556 gun. The ammo is light and easyier to carry.

You can allways get another upper chambered for 6.8spc
if you want a heavier round or want to hunt with an AR.

3) Barrel Length: 16" 18" or 20"
It deosn't really matter. Go with a 16" flattop for your first.

4) Manufacturer - Model

Colt LE6920 (make sure to get one with the new standard size pins) or a LMT (DI) will serve you well. Both are Teir1, top shelf quality ARs that you can bet your life on. Probally $1100-1300.

If you want to go crazy later on, Get a Larue Tactical Stealth 18" upper with the full length handgard and slap it on your existing lower.:D
If you want bigger rounds later on, Get a Stag 6.8 SPC upper for your existing Colt Lower.
 
Thanks so much for all the help guys!

C-grunt, that's a good point about the mil-spec parts and each piston company using their own proprietary parts.

Zerodefect, all three of those, Scar, FS2000 and Sig 556, were on my list at one point or another. I especially like the Sig because it has been out for a long time and has, to the best of my knowledge, a good reputation. Mainly, though, it's price isn't that much higher than the top DI setups. Then the Scar, well being that it was adopted by SOCOM speaks for itself.

FenderTK421, yeah I guess there is still plenty of progress to be made in the piston area so letting others iron all that out before I jump into it would be best.

Nice vid, MrClean, that's reassuring.

Thanks again everyone.
 
If you order an upper and lower together, you have to pay a 10% transfer tax, don't you?
 
Never heard of such a thing - may depend on your state. Where I live we just do a NICS check. Typically the NICS, background check, transfer fees, etc... will only apply if you are obtaining a lower for this type of rifle. The lower is considered the gun. So whether you buy a complete rifle, just a lower or any combination of parts WITH the lower, I would plan on going thru the new gun purchase requirements for your area. Good luck and let us know what you get!
 
I would go this route http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1ATDELTONA3&groupid=11

Good deal for $669

Or the route I did http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=2163837&cat=161&

I got this one handpicked with shipping for $648 delivered, and my FFL charges me only $10...I tracked it, and it is in Kansas on its way to my hometown LGS...

Either one is a good foot in the door AR wise--- I only got the 18" Gvt profile barrel due to me having a Stag Model 2 on layaway-- Once these are in and done up, I will probably go the lightweight route with a homebuilt Cavalry Arms lower and a pencil upper (RRA? maybe) for the wife---
 
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