Government protects itself rather than survivors?

[TheGoodLife]

Let's use the military to respond to disasters

Preacherman,

I absolutely agree with the concerns you have expressed in your post.

The immediate charge of 'conspiracy theory' is unfortunate. Things are far worse than just theory.

“In a police state the police are national, powerful, authoritarian. Inevitably, national governments yield to the temptation to use the military to do the heavy lifting….once the military is used, however minor initially, the march toward martial law … becomes irresistible.” - Representative Ron Paul of Texas - June 25 1997.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Preacherman

Good articles as usual. Didn't one of our Founding Fathers say something
to the effect that "Government isn't about eloquence, it's about force."???

Also, quote within a quote:
"This was not incompetence; it was the normal workings of the "I am in charge and don't you forget it" mentality that permeates government at all levels."
----------------

Not to defend government, but if a beaurocratic mentality --especially
when it resides mostly within the single head of that agency-- actually
interferes with the mission of the agency, then I would still have to
say that "incompetence" is still at work. Since part of FEMA's stated
mission is to provide "recovery efforts following any national incident"
the American public would agree they failed in that regard. Given all
the aid that FEMA turned back or did not even tap in the first place,
this would show gross incompetence and negligence.

The problem is the USA has become too much like the socialists we once
geared ourselves to fight against. Someone has to be an aparachnik
to even move up into a position of authority and responsibility. These
are often NOT the best most altruistic people our society will produce.

Nice caring competent intelligent people don't stay in government and
move into high positions due to the nature of the beast

 

[TallPine]

Stupid, insane, or evil...?

Does it really matter? The result is the same.


The only real hope that I can see is a direct asteroid hit on DC

 

[TheEgg]

the reality is that it did not fail at all. It was a huge success in promoting its own agenda. Unfortunately, that agenda was not to rescue American citizens. Once this simple fact is understood, everything that happened in the wake of Katrina becomes understandable and logical.

Yes. I have written here many times that government force, such as the police and military, is not created and maintained with the primary purpose of defending/saving/rescueing individuals, but rather to defend the power structure, embodied in the government. In defending and preserving the power structure, it WILL as a side effect rescue and save a lot of people (after all, without people, government could not exist, right?), but it will always react to people as a "mob" or a "mass" or "the proletariat", and not as individuals.

This is NOT a conspiracy run by evil government planners, but rather a natural and inevitable result of human nature when organized into large tribes, such as nation/states. Nation states behave much like any living organism, and any organism's first primal drive is to survive. When pressed, any government, including ours, will go to outlandish extremes to survive. We have seen a few glimpses of this here -- I hope not to see our government really pushed against the wall during my lifetime -- it will not be pretty.

 

[JohnBT]

"The only real hope that I can see is a direct asteroid hit on DC "

HA! It won't help! That's why FEMA has www.fema.gov/rrr/weather.shtm

www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/mt_weather.htm

"The Army Corps of Engineers completed the "Area B" underground complex in 1958-1959. Total constuction costs, adjusted for inflation, are estimated to have exceeded $1 billion. Tunnel roofs are shored up with some 21,000 iron bolts driven 8 to 10 feet into the overhead rock. The entrance is protected by a guillotine gate, and a 10 foot tall by 20 foot wide 34-ton blast door that is 5 feet thick and reportedly takes 10 to 15 minutes to open or close.

The underground bunker includes a hospital, crematorium, dining and recreation areas, sleeping quarters, reservoirs of drinking and cooling water, an emergency power plant, and a radio and television studio which is part of the Emergency Braodcasting System. A series of side-tunnels accomodate a total of 20 office buildings, some of which are three stories tall. The East Tunnel includes a computer complex for directing emergency simulations and operations through the Contingency Impact Analysis System (CIAS) and the Resource Interruption Monitoring System (RIMS).

An on-site 90,000 gallon/day sewage treatment plant and two 250,000 gallon above-ground storage tanks are intended to support a population of 200 for up to 30 days. Although the facility is designed to accomodate several thousand people (with sleeping cots for 2,000), only the President, the Cabinet, and Supreme Court were provided private sleeping quarters. For Continuity of Government purposes, senior officials are divided into Alpha, Bravo and Charlie teams -- the first remains in Washington, the second relocates to Mount Weather, and the third disperses to other relocation sites.

The complex was prepared to assume certain governmental powers at the time of the 1961 Cuban missile crisis and the assassination of President Kennedy in 1963. The first full-scale activation of the facility came on 9 November 1965, at the time of the great Northeastern power blackout. The installation used the tools of its Civil Crisis Management program on a standby basis during the 1967 and 1968 urban riots and during a number of national antiwar demonstrations.

In its 1974 Annual Report, the Federal Preparedness Agency [FPA] stated that "Studies conducted at Mount Weather involve the control and management of domestic political unrest where there are material shortages (such as food riots) or in strike situations where the FPA determines that there are industrial disruptions and other domestic resource crises." "

 

[spartacus2002]

FEMA didn't do all this bungling because of some conspiracy to control people.

FEMA did all this bungling because that's what a bloated, over-regulated government bureaucracy does best.......bungle.

Bureacracy is about equal parts bungling and control.

When we say "control" we don't mean some monolithic worldwide conspiracy involving Bilderbergers/Trilaterals/CFR/Grey Aliens; we mean "respect mah authoritay." Government and bureaucracy value control, order, and authority, and they fear ingenuity, initiative, and judgment.

Bureaucracy believes that if you aren't part of the PLAN, then you are a threat. This is anathema to American culture, but unfortunately has become a predominant trait in American government. This is a Bad Thing for the health of a free Republic.

And now we want to put the Pentagon in charge of disaster relief, shoving aside local/state governments. Ridiculous.

 

[Art Eatman]

I started with a Texas state agency in late 1964. I got hired away in 1975 to work in a state-federal land use management program. After two years I was a consultant to a small state agency, working with both the feds and with the Texas legislature. The latter group, with its maggot-gagging abilities, led to my goning into small-time entrepreneurial stuff in 1979. That's fifteen years of up-close-and-personal watching government from the inside.

My dropping out doesn't mean I've quit watching Gummint In Action. Or inaction.

I don't see any conspiracy as to the government-in-control issue. It's a mix of "all of the above" as to the mtoivations of the various folks whose orders assisted Katrina in maintaining chaos beyond what we might consider normal limits.

Some people enjoy having authority over others. Some people are process oriented, believing that dotting the "i" and crossing the "t" is as important if not more important than achieving a goal. Some people operate on the basis that if they don't make a decision but instead buck it on upstairs, they won't get any blame if things go wrong.

All these personality types are prime candidates for government employment. That doesn't mean there are no competent, goal-oriented people in bureaucracies, but IMO they're generally in the minority.

Anyway, what I've seen from the inside puts me in agreement with Preacherman and his sources and conclusions.

No tinfoil hat needed, thank you.

, Art

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Government and bureaucracy value control, order, and authority, and they fear ingenuity, initiative, and judgment.

Bureaucracy believes that if you aren't part of the PLAN, then you are a threat. This is anathema to American culture, but unfortunately has become a predominant trait in American government. This is a Bad Thing for the health of a free Republic.

And now we want to put the Pentagon in charge of disaster relief, shoving aside local/state governments. Ridiculous.

Exactly right!

 

[Warren]

Government sucks. There is no end to the bad results you can achieve with enough money and power and lack of accountability. The more government you have the worse things get, this is also glaringly true in disaster response.

What we are seeing with Katrina is part of the whole "leave it to the experts" mindset that is ruining this country.

There is a mania for central planning that is corroding the soul of America. If the government can do 'A' why not have it do 'B' and 'C' as well? In fact give them the power to compel, a monopoly on the service and fund them with unearned money and we can expect great results because it is all planned and scientific-like.

And yippee-ki-yea we don't have to do a thing cause we gots us some experts! Oh no, wait! They SUCK! But they won't let us do anything! Damn! Whadda we do now?

I'll take random bunches of amateur, decentralized, unfunded rednecks and Mega-Corps looking for good P.R. over any number of FEMA$$wipes and local tax funded incompetents in any emergency.

 

[XLMiguel]

I remeber reading somewhere a year or two after FEMA was formed that the number of declared "states of emergency" something like quadrupled once there was an agency consitituted to 'manage' them. Large incumbent bureaucracies do, indeed, become an end unto themselves once they attain critical mass.

The thing that scares the hell out of me if the military ever becomes in charge of natural disaster S&R is that some soldiers are going to shoot some citizens whe decide they don't want any government 'help', and then the fun will really begin. :banghead:

 

[DRZinn]

some soldiers are going to shoot some citizens whe decide they don't want any government 'help', and then the fun will really begin.

Then maybe we can, as someone else on this board has said, "get it on and get it over with."

 

[Amusetec]

I've always told people I thought FEMA was the most dangerous agency in the .gov, always to laughter and a joke about my paranoia.

Oh well, I'll stay paranoid a bit longer I suppose.

I disagree with you on this point they maybe the 2nd most dagerous. but by far the most dagerous IMHO is BATFE.
Revinuers maybe we should do what my great grand pa from tenn. did about revinuers.

 

[ctdonath]

Well this sure explains those schoolbusses. In the "survival bureacracy" theory, Nagan/Blanco were exactly right and makes perfect sense (to them): the busses couldn't be used because the bureaucratically correct drivers, controlled by the gov't, could not be expected to drive them under those conditions and purposes. Makes perfect sense to them why the busses ended up underwater; couldn't have just anyone drive them - not just because it isn't allowed, but because any alternative to the prescribed system is completely inconceivable.

It's not conspiracy, it's survival of the system. The structure and momentum of the organization protects its own social power; you will only act on permission, and will be punished if you act without permission. The system feeds on "need"; anyone reducing "need" is a threat and must be eliminated. Again, it's not conspiracy (in tinfoil-hat terms), its simply what enduring organizations do, and what governmental organizations are especially good at: surviving. Which, of course, explains the need to disarm citizens, turn away truckloads of food/water, and become hostile to anyone showing self-sufficiency.

 

[spartacus2002]

ctdonath explained it perfectly.

 

[TheGoodLife]

FEMA detainment camp

The following is absolutely outrageous. I found it last night after it was mentioned on another site.

It is a first-hand account and commentary with photos of a FEMA detainment camp.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/fema.html

And, there is an government official responding to the claims made in the post. The link to that is near the top of the page, before the thread begins.

**
Important Update To This Story!
Government Rebuttal Has Been Posted to ATS.
Rebuttal to "I just got back from a FEMA Detainment Camp"
By Ed Kostiuk, Oklahoma State Dept of Health, Emergency Management
**

Makes for some interesting reading, for sure.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Wal-Mart distributed 10 times more water, blankets, food and generators than anyone else either at fair prices or given away for free.

I'd like to know where you heard that. I've been spending a fair amount of time in relief centers in Gulfport and Bay St Louis/Waveland. I've also seen some of the action in Biloxi as well as points north as far as 300 miles. all of the Wal-Marts on the coast were knocked out for the first couple of weeks. As far as I know, Gulfport is still the only one operating south of Wiggins. I have seen no distribution of emergency supplies out of Wal-Mart other than their normal business operations.

The vast majority of the relief work has been done by non-profits, especially the southern churches. In my areas the North Carolina Baptists and the Christian Life mission out of Orange Beach Alabama have been impressive. Also, the Rainbow Family has the largest kitchen going right now, serving thousands of meals a day. Good fresh organic veggies and free-range chicken, too.

http://www.welcomehome.org/rema/

There's a link where you can make donations.

As far as the government's performance is concerned, what do you expect when the last 2 administrations have done all in their power to cripple every aspect of government except for the security apparatus? what do you expect when the dunce currently in charge appoints his political cronies to posts like head of FEMA?

Sure, government in general has a lot of limitations, but the current one takes the prize.

I don't suppose anyone around here had read this story:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/092105_world_stories.shtml#0

I know, Ruppert's a bit of a whacko, but this story was getting forwarded a lot at the time. This is just where I found it now.

 

[Scottmkiv]

I have seen no distribution of emergency supplies out of Wal-Mart other than their normal business operations.

I think that was at least half the point. Their normal business operations are supplying "emergency supplies"

 

[exoduster18]

20Cows...

I'm with 20cows on this one....stay low and be prepared.....This is a pretty sobering commentary.

 

[5string_dean]

I believe those of you saying that this is all "tinfoil hat" nonsense are missing the point....

The article isn't saying that there is some dark, vast government conspiracy, complete with skulduggery of various sorts and coverups, etc. It's not even saying that the government went into this "disaster relief" with ulterior motives.

What it is pointing out is the apparent fact that Governement really can't help but act like.... well, Government!

Any time you roll Civil Authority, Provider of food-shelter-housing, and Political Beaurocracy all into one entity you can't help but have this sort of mess.

The article was merely pointing out that what the American public saw as a complete failure was only what should be expected from giving the government that much power and relying on the government so completely.

The Founding Fathers knew as much and took pains to limit the scope of government... limits which, sadly, we have allowed the government to circumvent or remove.

I see this more as an indictment of us, of American society, than of the government. I say that in the belief that, at least at this point, our government is yet still our creation... if it is too big, to self-serving, too whatever, it is because America has allowed it to become so.

Neither am I just pointing the finger at the Liberals or Democrats or Republicans, etc. I bear blame in this too... through inattention, ignorance, laziness, or wishfull thinking I have only recently awakened to how far we have fallen & I wonder is it too late? How do we find the road home?

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Great article Preacherman. It reminds me of a quote from Ronald Reagan:

...In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem. From time to time, we have been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. But if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else?... -Ronald Reagan First Inaugural Address Tuesday, January 20, 1981-

We've come a long way from RWR. Unfortunately, I needed the Internet, talk radio and experience to understand how truly great Reagan was.

I shudder to think where we would all be if we had jumped from a Carter to a Mondale to a Clinton.

Or even a Carter to a Bush to a Clinton to a Bush.

We need to move the Republican Party or maybe the American people back to the Reagan ideal.

The Founding Fathers knew as much and took pains to limit the scope of government... limits which, sadly, we have allowed the government to circumvent or remove.

How can we get up off our butts and promote a better understanding of the US Constitution?

 

[V4Vendetta]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but I know several cops frm that area & they said the female governor* told the police that they were not to shoot the looters even if the cops were being shot at. So the 300 cops said "Fine." & left.


I think her name is Blanco but I'm not sure.