Grabbing the slide

[CAnnoneer]

Suppose you are struggling for the gun with a BG in close quarters and he has it (for now) by the handle.

Is it a good idea to grab the slide and hold it tightly? If the gun goes off but is prevented from cycling, it would be disabled until somebody racks the slide. So, is it possible to squeeze the slide against the frame and use the trigger guard as a stop?

Most pistols nowadays are of the locked-breach variety (Browning style), so they have to travel back a bit before unlocking and releasing for the full travel backwards. Will your hand get damaged and how much? Blowbacks will probably be worse, since they fire from unlocked breach.

An alternative strategy may be to grab and push the slide back to unlock it and maybe causing a feeding malfunction.

"I'd never be caught in such a situation." is non-responsive. You never know, and that's not the point anyway.

 

[Zundfolge]

I've read about these kind of techniques from various martial arts guys ... most consider such a move to be an "expert and above" type move, but it seems to me that even if you aren't able to cause the gun to malfunction, you should try to grab it anyway (what have you got to lose?).

But honestly it doesn't take much to push a slide out of battery (which will prevent most modern semi auto pistols to not fire ... thats why you buy those devices that fit on the front of a pistol with a rail to prevent pushing the slide out of battery from the muzzle like this one).

In my CCW class the instructor demonstrated how you can grab a DA revolver by the cylinder and prevent it from firing as well.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Balls as big as church bells....

 

[pax]

FederalistWeasel ~

Not necessarily. It might be sheer terror or simple necessity ...

Steve Chaney, police officer, in the 1970's, used the "grab the cylinder to keep it from revolving" move while he was in a fight for his life with a bad guy who had taken his gun. Fight lasted for several minutes. The bad guy soaked up some dozen rounds of .38 (including one direct-contact head shot), and expired only after bleeding out. You can see a re-enactment of the scene, and hear Chaney's first person account, in the "Ultimate Survivors" video from Paladin.

Anyway. In that case at least, it wasn't like Chaney was doing some chest-thumping he-man move. It was simply a terrified but determined action from someone who couldn't run and didn't want to get shot.

pax

 

[GRIZ22]

I learned the grabbing the cylinder to prevent the revolver from discharging on a radio episode of "The Shadow" so it's not a new concept.

I know an agent who prevented himself from being shot and by shoving his finger behind the BG trigger (I think it was a 6906 in the DA mode).

The Secret Service agent who grabbed Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme actually ripped up the web of his thumb shoving it between the hammer and slide (she had a 1911).

If it comes down to it anything you do to prevent being shot in such a situation is good.

 

[Devonai]

I practice this sort of thing in my martial arts training about once a month. The techniques are very similar to knife defense at first. Taking the slide out of battery is very effective, as is dropping the magazine. If the pistol doesn't have a magazine disconnect (and we train as if it does not), once the mag is gone, a viable option is to fire the round in the chamber in a safe direction, taking the pistol out of play.

Of course, finding a safe direction to point the pistol may not be possible. At least if the bad guy gets the shot off (and you survive) the pistol will no longer be in play.

The downside to this kind of training is that the Airsoft pistols we prefer don't hold up too well to sincere efforts, and the solid rubber pistols don't have working slides or magazines.

Still, the lessons learned from this kind of training are extremely valuable.

 

[Lonestar49]

Think about it

Quote: In my CCW class the instructor demonstrated how you can grab a DA revolver by the cylinder and prevent it from firing as well.
-------------

I could be wrong here, but I would think the forces are at work in this one real event, and the imagined semi-auto scenario, vary in strength, and skill, considerably.

First, the DA revolver incident was with a LEO, that has gone thru tactical training, over and over, so his instincts come on line without hesitation, and he has training for just such a moment. And, grabbing/squeezing on a "rotating barrel" and keeping it from revolving for another shot is, I would think, far easier to do, strength wise than:

One in a fight with a BG, throwing in the element of surprise, being, this is a first time scary/plus some panic thrown, occurrence, in as well, and my thinking is; if it's 9mm, 40cal, 357sig, or 45cal, semi, and you have the slide grasped in your hand, during an ongoing, fluid/moving, fight, the power of a semi's recoil, based on gas pressure, will over-come but the strongest, tightest, "perfectly placed squeeze" while holding this grip, using up oxygen at a max rate, and your strength along with that effort, on a semi's slide, will not work, and the gun is gonna fire, unless all the stars are aligned, perfectly.

Your best bet, IMO, is if you manage to get a hand on the semi, or any type gun, is to push it away, either up or to the side, out of its line of fire towards you. Much easier to do, and hold, along with, bringing up a knee over and over and hitting the berry's, which will considerably help in getting the BG's air reserves, emptied, along with his strength.

IMHO


LS

 

[pax]

Lonestar,

Actually the story I related, of Officer Steve Chaney in the 1970's, happened at the very, very beginning of the officer survival movement and pretty much before SWAT teams or SWAT training even existed. Might have happened before anyone invented the word "tactical" or made a shrine out of it, either.

pax

 

[hso]

A revolver that does not have the hammer back must rotate the cylinder to advance the next round to fire. Preventing the cylinder from advancing prevents the weapon from firing. This is not the case with a semiauto handgun that has a slide.

The semi will fire the first round even if you have a death grip in the slide and frame. The weapon simply will not cycle to allow the next round from loading to be fired.

Jamming fingers or parts of the hand between the external hammer and firing pin on revolvers and semiautos with external hammers will prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin.

Other options include jamming the slide back taking a semiauto out of battery so the firing pin can not strike the primer or to allow it to double feed (essentially locking it up).

I've never tried or been taught to try to remove a magazine.

I've beed taught to disarm by attacking the gun and by attacking the hand and by attacking the wrist. I personally have found attacking the gun to result in less reliable results for me personally. I have found attacking the hand and wrist to be far more reliable in avoiding getting shot. (Simunitions is more realistic, but the potential for injury to hands and wrists is enough to make it undesirable in my opinion. Airsoft enhances training greatly because it doesn't have that potential while still allowing the participant to get "shot".)

 

[sm]

pax and hso posts are excellent.

No chest thumping, no fantasy, - just sheer gut level "flight or fight" kicks in and survival is the goal.
Another tool in the tool box it to get that muzzle away from you as quickly as can, and "maybe" Lady Luck will step in and break opponent's finger in the trigger guard in the process.

This might give you an edge in further stopping the threat.

 

[Lonestar49]

Copy that

Quote: Lonestar,

Actually the story I related, of Officer Steve Chaney in the 1970's, happened at the very, very beginning of the officer survival movement and pretty much before SWAT teams or SWAT training even existed. Might have happened before anyone invented the word "tactical" or made a shrine out of it, either.

pax
-----------
...

~ The Book of Knowledge ~ has a beginning, thus your friends first, acknowledged, successful as recorded, in the history, of tactical moves.

And, ~The Book of Knowledge ~ has no end.

My best,


LS

 

[Sunray]

"...Will your hand get damaged..." Yep. Holding the slide will do nothing but rip your hand. You'll get shot too.

 

[never_retreat]

Ouch.

 

[The Unknown User]

I don't see how holding the moving part of a firearm is safe. I'm not saying it isn't, but if I get held up before I can carry, the last thing I'm doing is putting my fingers on the moving part of a firearm.

Deflect it, and just go berserk on the bad guy.

 

[gezzer]

When you can grab the gun wrench it sideways to hopefully break or dislocate the bad guys finger. Turn it into him and pull the trigger with his broken finger using yours and shoot him. That was training I received in the academy and in other courses.

 

[Feanaro]

Holding the slide will do nothing but rip your hand.

Really?

One can debate the likelyhood of getting a good enough grip but you CAN jam a pistol by grabbing the slide.

 

[1911 guy]

Best reason yet to carry a fixed blade knife.

Having had some, not a whole heck of a lot, though, training in disarming techniques, I can tell you that none of them are overly reliable and all carry the risk of getting holed. It just depends on how well Lady Luck likes you that day.

Grabbing the cylinder of a revolver is very effective, even moreso than trying to keep the slide of a semi-auto out of battery.

The best handgun control and retention device and technique I know of is to carry a fixed blade knife on your off side.

 

[Zundfolge]

I should point out that the "grab the cylinder" move was not presented as a self defense tactic, more it was shown that having a gun doesn't make you the instant winner of the fight, as the criminal can simply grab the cylinder of your revolver, yank the slide off your Taurus 92 or other tactics and take your gun out of the fight so you have to think ahead as to what you'll do if that happens.