Grade the M-14/M1A as a SHTF/TEOTW/Whatev rifle

[Curt Blunt]

Something seems to have been overlooked in this p*ssing match

Kenshin is from California and posted

"Grade the M-14/M1A as a SHTF/TEOTW/Whatev rifle
NO comparisons with other rifles.
Just grade the thing (full-size) by itself"

One thing you're not going to find on the dealer's racks in California are rifles with detachable magazines and pistol grips. So as much as we Golden Staters may appreciate the other rifles it's a moot point if we don't already have an FAL, AR or whatever.

As far as my own experience, my issue weapon in the Army was the M-14 (yes, I'm that old) which I really liked. It feels like a traditional rifle. I fired the M-16 in the Reserves and other shooters' AR's at the range. It's accurate and light in recoil but feels a bit awkward to someone use who shoots mainly bolt action sporters.

To make a long story short my OT SHTF rifle would be a 16" AR with fixed stock (if I could possess one) for outlaw biker gangs up to 300 yards and an M14/M1A for 300 plus and vehicles (w/AP's).

We probably shouldn't forget the M1911 or P-35 for confined spaces and/or fighting our way to the party.

 

[J32A2]

Newbie with a question! Soon I'm going to buy a SA M1A. I would also like to pick up a SAGE EBR Stock. My ? is, does the SAGE stock accept any length barrel? Standard 22'', Scout 18'' and SOCOM 16''? How does the .308 work with a 16'' barrel?
Thanks
Brad

 

[byf43]

I'll grade the M14, as the origininal poster (OP) requests:

I give it an A+!!

Now, I've read just about every post (at least once) before posting.
One that I took 'note' of - - -

If the 14 had "proved its worth", the M16 would never have been.
The 14 did NOT do what it was designed to do, which was provide both semi and fully automatic fire for the individual rifleman.

Ummmmmmmmmm . . the M14 did prove it's worth.
The M16 was brought into service because some General Officer in the US Air Force (can't remember his name. . . Hap Arnold, maybe???) wanted the M16 platform issued.

There was a guy by the name of Robert McNamara (SecDef) that wanted the M16 platform also.
The U.S. chose the M14 over the FAL because we wanted a rifle built in the U.S. and not someplace chosen by NATO, and that's why other nations that are using the 7.62x51mm round are using the FAL.
(The precursor to the 9mm NATO fiasco!!!)

(Sarcasm light on - - - No-one would EVER believe that POLITICS had ANYTHING to do with the M14 platform saying 'goodbye' and the M16 platform brought in, would they???? Sarcasm light off.)

In my not so humble opinion, whatever rifle fits YOUR needs (unless you are ISSUED a particular platform) is what you should choose in a TEOTWAWKI or a SHTF scenario.

Me????
I have no problem reaching for any or all of these choices (which I own), in a rifle:

M1 Garand (not first choice)
SAI M1A (accurized to National Match [+] standards) Except it has no rear lug, this rifle will keep up with a SuperMatch rifle!
AR-HBAR (extremely accurate)
Remington 700 BDL (.30-'06)

 

[ROMAK IV]

I have used commercial 308 in my M1-A without problems. from what I understand the M1-A is generally headspaced to where that isn't a problem. I see an M1-A as particularly desirable in a SHTF situation primarily because of its caliber, excellent sights, and as Fred has pointed out, a usual 2 MOA accuracy as well as a forward assist. Even without consideration of long distance shooting, 308 is far superior to 556 in stopping vehicles as well as penetrating body armour. I think it's clear from recent snatch and grab robberies using large stolen SUV's, an anti Vehicle rifle is quite necessary, even in short range urban environments. Personally, I would use every rifle I had in a SHTF environment, unless it was necessary to move, and then I would probably grab my ROMAK III as well, since I have more ammo and much of it is steel core.

 

[GunTech]

Another thing to consider. The 5.56x45 using ball ammo is generally more lethal than 7.62x51 with ball ammo, at short range. Since I am no longer in the service, I'll be using nice expanding ammo, thank you very much. With soft point spitzers, there is no comparison - 308 hands down.

byf43, the person you are thinking of is Gen Curtis Lemay, who was given a demo of the M16 at a piucknick by Colt reps (who knew how to work the procurement system). The M-14 did have issues as related to infantry combat. Point the way to the future was Norman Hitchmans seminal report "Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon". This, along with Donald Hall's "An effectiveness study of the infantry rifle" had profound influence among the more forward thinking small arms designers. It basically came to the same conclusions that the German army had reached in the 1930s - that infantry rifles were overpowered for normal combat conditions, and that automatic fire was essential during many phases of infantry ground combat.

The reason that the US adopted the M14, and derailed attempts by our allies to adopt a more appropriate rifle for mechanized combat in a large part were due to the efforts of one man, Col Rene Studler, who insisted in maintaining the very rifle characteristics that combat studies were proving to be unecessary and counter-productive.

It would take pages and pages to go into the full details, but if anyone is interested, I suggest reading "The Great Rifle Controversy" by Ezell.

Some interesting tidbits for those into assault rifle trivia.

The M16 was not designed by Eugene Stoner. Stoner designed the AR-10, and Armalite employee L. James Sullivan was the one who redesigned the AR-10 for the 5.56x54mm cartridge.

The FN FAL was originally designed to fire the 7.92x33mm StG-44 cartridge of the German army. It was adapted to the 7.62x51mm once it was clear that the US was not going to accept any intermediate catridge, but only a slightly redesigned 30-06.

 

[Expertowgunner]

I have shot my friends SA M-21 sniper and while i like its accuracy, im not sold on that rifle as a shtf rifle. Think logically for a second here; the 223. or 5.56 cartridge is the round used by police, military, and is a common civilian round and is my personal shtf round for this reason (same reason i chose the 9mm as my sidearm round, its not the best round, but its super common and you can carry alot). You can carry almost double the amount of that round for round compared to the 308. While i love the lethality and penetration of the 308., it is not my round of choice. Also, ar mags are a dime a dozen and can be easily acquired. I have actually seen very little m14 mags around my neck of the woods (i live in the ozarks in MO). Also, push comes to shove a m14 is not the best rifle when carrying all your shtf gear (heavy ruck, pistol, ****loads of ammo, batteries, food, water,maps, extra set of clothes,etc.) and is not very manuverable in close cramped envrioments. I dont want to dog the rifle, it really is one of the top 10 rifles of all time, but its not in the top 5 due to some of its flaws. top 5 for me are the AR/M16, AK, FAL, HKG3/91, and AUG. (ive shot all of these rifles in one form or another by the way)

 

[GunTech]

Do you hunt deer with you 223?

G3 and AUG in the top 5? I can see no way in which the G3 tops the M14 except perhaps that it is cheaper to manufacture. Crappy trigger, poor accuracy, ergonomics of a 2x4.

After owning 3 AUGs, it quickly became clear to me that this is a rifle designed for an army that doesn't intend to fight. The only thing it has going for it is that it is one of the few bullpup rifles sold in any considerable number.

Do I consider the M14 the top rifle? No. But for a STHF rifle, is does just about every duty well - accuracy, reliability, killing power, range. It is long, thanks to a 22 inch barrel. If you must have compact, you can always opt for a SOCOM.

The M14/M1A porrly maintained is far more reliable than a poorly maintained AR-15. Not to many people have lots of cleaning gear and breakfree in their SHTF kit. True, ammo is heavier. But if you aren't restricted to ball ammo, 308 is so superior to 223 as to be not worth mentioning. Further, 308 is very common as well, being one of the 5 most popular rounds of ammo sold in the united states.

BTW, the 308 has more energy at 300 yards than 223 does at the muzzle. Unless you are operating as part of a team, and only plan on being in an urban environment, 223 would not be my first choice. What makes a good combat rifle does not necessarily make a good SHTF rifle.

 

[ratseal]

Carried a M14 for a lot of years, including Desert Storm. It was accurate with iron sights to 600 yd (reliably hit a man sized target), never and I mean never ever jammed, always went bang, and seemed to dump a guy with more authority than the CAR727's we had at the time. The 727's jammed consistently.

Used a wooden E3 stock, and taped foam to the stock for a better cheek weld. Improvised a sling swivel using 3/32 stainless round stock and some riggers tape layered with fiberglass mat (the heat of firing would melt nylon otherwise). Used standard irons, but later installed NM 1/2 minute sights. Experimented with an M203 underneath, but in the end that was a waste of stocks. Standard ammo was LC ball, with LC Match for special occassions. I still remember my 250yd battlesight dope with the LCM ( 14 clicks up, 3 right).

The weight was not material, since my first, second and third lines of gear weighed as much as I did.

To this day, it remains my go to rifle.

 

[Expertowgunner]

All im saying guntech, is good look trying to find anymore mags, parts, and ammo once the shelves of gunstores, wal-mart, etc are all gone. Not many cops carry 308. rifles. I probably was being too harsh by saying that the hkg3 was superior to the m14, but i still think the m14 gets more credit than it deserves. Now, in my opinion the steyr aug is a great rifle once you get past the heavier trigger, and the new a3 looks like a great rifle. The m14 only has better ballastics and sights going for it, thats it. Reliablity from what i have seen is worse than a g3. Ive seen g3 and cetmes that looked so worn and horrible that it looked like it wouldnt shoot worth a ****, but performed great. 308. is a better round than a 223. in terms of killing power, but it comes at a cost of weight and recoil. Now, in terms of all around best 308. rifle i think a dsa fal wins hands down. Great reliablity, great ergonomics, and is still really accurate.

 

[Expertowgunner]

By the way, the most accurate semi-auto in the world (psg-1) is based off of the g3, and REAL hkg3s are accurate. Ergonomics are not the best, but they seem to be not as bad as most make it out to be.

 

[Gator]

PSG-1s are very accurate, but THE most accurate?

I think not! The only place you will hear that claim is from HK.

The accuracy of a service grade G3 is about the same as the M14, 2-4" at 100 yards.

An aside: When the PSG1 was first introduced some HK reps were asked why it was so expensive, their only answer was that it was an HK. Requests for further justification were met with blank looks.

 

[sacp81170a]

The resurgence of the M-14 is proof that the current military mindset of making one weapon do the work of 4, well, doesn't work. I have no objection to most troops carrying M4's, especially the ones that have to deploy from vehicles frequently and maneuver in tight spaces. There's also a place for the dedicated automatic weapon, and, surprise, the designated marksman. The M-14 fits quite nicely in this role. Its use as a stealthy sniper weapon is limited by the fact that it spits brass(compromising concealment), but when you absolutely positively have to reach out and touch someone behind an obstacle, .308 beats .223 hands down.

Semi-auto means you can engage multiple targets quickly and reload quickly, an advantage over bolt action rifles. Depending on the terrain, .308 offers the advantage of going through a brick wall on the first shot that .223 doesn't and 7.62x39 only does on a straight on shot.

Given that the possible scenarios for a true SHTF situation might involve urban settings and that you're not going to be clearing buildings (on purpose, that is), the M1A/M14 works in that role. Given that its' accuracy and lethality to 600 yards with iron sights is unquestioned, it trumps all but the best examples of the other 7.62x51 families. (No offense to the FN and HK guys out there, some of them are supremely accurate as well.) It's durable, cleans up easily, and is tolerant of abuse. Works for me.

 

[GunTech]

I've had the opportunity to shoot on of the few real PSG-1 imported into the US. It is not the most accurate semi-auto by a long shot. I also had occasion to shoot a GAP built AR-10 that would stack rounds in pretty much the same hole, for about 1/6 the price of a PSG, without optics. I've owned an AR-10HB and an SR-25 and both will outshoot about any other semi made. The reason I have an M1A now has more to do with nostalgia. Also, the M1A/M14 is much more tolerant of neglect than the ARs. Keep a couple of the right sized drills handy, and you can keep the M14 shooting for a long time with nothing but a little grease on the bolt and roller.

HK is the master of marketing over substance. They make decent guns, but they are nothing special. They have the worst triggers ever put on a military rifle, and because they are stampted, there's not much you can do about it. They had to build a completely new trigger group for the PSG.

The much vaunted HK roller lock system has been so well received that HK has totally abandoned it. Ever fired an HK with the rollers out of spec? The HK is a delayed blowback - not a locked action. Things can get pretty exciting after too much wear. And the gun is pretty much unserviceable after a certain point. Forget about changing barrels in most of the older HKs. The G3 was designed to be a limited lifespan, disposable rifle. They were meant to be replaced when worn out, not serviced.

I go to lots of tactical and sniper matches. I have yet to see an HK, and the folk who shoot these matches can afford to shoot anything. They pick what wins. I've seen one FAL, and it didn't place in the to 10, or even anywhere close. When it comes to semi-autos, almost top rifles all are AR-10 type rifles, or AR-15s shooting very heavy bullets. I've seen one MSG-90, and it got it's ass handed to it. To his credit, the guy with the MSG90 beat me and my M1a by a point. We were both at the bottom end.

Probably the most accurate semi built to date is the Walther WA2000, and only a handful of them were made. IIRC, only 15 ever made it into the US.

Of course, this is only my experience with thre mentioned rifles. YMMV

 

[GunTech]

Forgot about one other feature of the M14/M1A. Unlike many other potential SHTF rifles, the M14 makes a superior club when empty.

 

[GunTech]

All im saying guntech, is good look trying to find anymore mags, parts, and ammo once the shelves of gunstores, wal-mart, etc are all gone.

The same is true any miltary semi-auto. Try finding magazines or parts for an AR in anything other than a specialty gunshop. None of the gun stores around here have AR parts. You are going to have to be well supplied before hand.

Not many cops carry 308. rifles.

I'm married to an LEO. Must agencies are thinking in terms of handgun range and worry about things like overpenetration. They are also in urban environments. Quite a few rural agencies that issue rifles have selected 308. Any 308 is pretty much the standard for police snipers.

As noted, 308 is one of the top 5 calibers sold in the US. Any gun shop that stocks ammo with have 308. It's also the standard MG round for military.

As I noted, there is nothing wrong with 223 as long as you understand its limitations. it is really a 200 yard and under cartridge, and as another poster noted, does not do well against barrier - although shooting M855 helps. 308 is a 1000 yard cartridge in the right rifle, and easily a 600 yard one is any reasonable battle rifle. Personally, if the SHTF, the city is the last place I want to be, and if I am in open country I want range between me and the other guy.

Right now, M14 rifles are undergoing a renaissance, and parts are becomeing more available as companies are startying to make new parts. While the AR is far and away the dominant military rifle in terms of parts and accessories, it's not that hard to find parts and mags for the M14. And the M14, while bigger and heavier, if far more overbuilt than the AR and more likely to survive long use without maintenance.

Finally, your situation will dictate what works best for you. I do have an AR in the safe, next to my M1A. I'm in western Montana in very open country. If I were stuck in an urban area, the AR-15 might be a better choice. If given the chance, I'll pick the best tool for the job. If I have one choice, I'll pick the rifle with the widest possible use. For that reason, I've picked the M1A. As noted, I don't think it is the best at any one thing. But it is very good at just about anything a rifle might be called to do.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Things I love about the M14/M1A - excellent trigger and great iron sights. Some vague distant relation to the easy handling of the Garand; but not quite as nice as an AR or FAL.

Besides those things, I see nothing that the M14/M1A does that can't be done better by another rifle (caveat: I haven't played with any of the modernized M14 variants like the M1A Socom, SAGE stockes, Troy Mk14 etc.)

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I'm glad I have an 870 and don't have to worry about accuracy

 

[Shifty]

i opted for a m1 garand over a m1a because it "speaks to me"

plus being in CA, those legal extra 2 rounds come at the cost of being slower to reload. (i can reload a garand in the blink of the eye.) leaving enblocs on the run is pretty easy when you have hundreds of them, and you dont have to test them for reliability like a detachable magazine.

it really boils down to what you have when it all hits the fan.

is a 43 and change inches long, 60+ year old, non modular design the best rifle for all situations???? of course not. but if it works, and you can shoot it and maintain it, its better than a sharp stick.

just make sure you buy a short to mid range carbine, a shotgun, and a pistol to compliment your MBR and you are set. that covers all the bases

 

[GunTech]

Besides those things, I see nothing that the M14/M1A does that can't be done better by another rifle

True, but few other battle rifles do everything as well as the M14/M1A. It's the classic 'jack of all trades, master of none'.

The AR-10 is more accurate
The FAL is more ergonomic
The AK is more reliable
The AR is lighter, more firepower.

In favor of the M14/M1A.

Suitable for 800 yards - the AR is a 200-300 yard max rifle
more accurate than the FAL, AK, G3 - MOA with reasonable tuning
Easier to accurize, better sights and trigger
More reliable than the AR-10, more tolerant of neglect
Average optics support, better than the FAL, AK, G3, worse than the AR-10/AR-15

If you pick one primary attribute, the M14 comes out second or worse. But all around, it does very well indeed.

 

[GunTech]

BTW, in my experience, the SOCOM is not an accurate rifle. Mine was a 3 MOA gun. It may be possible to improve this, but as the SOCOM was designed with CQB as a primary consideration, this is not an issue. The 16 inch 308 is also very loud - in any rifle.

 

[GunTech]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I'd be very interested in how you all numerically rate various rifles on several key factors. On a scale of 1 being poor and 5 being excellent, how do you rate you facorite rifle in terms of the following:

Reliability
Accuracy
Power/lethality
Range
Durability
Ergonomics

(any other categories you think are important)

I'd rate the M14 as about a 4 in all categories. In this case, I am not thinking about a GI issue M14, but a typical M1A like the SA 'loaded' model - which is SA best selling model.

Some examples: Obviously, the AK rates a 5 in reliability and durability. The AR-10/SR-25 gets the nod for accuracy and range. Any 308 rates high in lethality. FAL gets high marks for reliability and ergonomics.

 

[trbon8r]

I agree, that as an entire package the M14 does everything well. It is at least as reliable as a FAL. It has much better controls than the G3 which must have been designed by a chimp. It is a more robust and reliable gun than the AR-10. The accuracy on the M14 when equipped with a GI fiberglass stock, is at least as good if not better than the competition.

If you happen to be part of the 10% known as left handed, the M14 is a particularly good setup. The controls work fantastic for a lefty, especially if the rifle has been equipped with one of the newer pistol grip types stocks like the VLTOR. I've got the VLTOR on my rifle, and won't be selling it anytime soon.

 

[Risasi]

This thread is STILL going...why am I not surprised.


Anyhoo...

It has much better controls than the G3 which must have been designed by a chimp.

:ahem: As a lefty I much prefer the ergonomics of the HK over a FAL... [/thread drift]

----

As for the original question, I rate the M1/M1A with a "B-", it is a good all round general use rifle, but there is always something that beats it in any individual criteria.

The big ones in a SHTF scenario are rifle/ammo weight, maintenance and cost.

 

[PRE 64 JOE]

I loved my 3 wives (sorta), I loved my GTO's and Corvettes (sorta), I love my pre 64 Win and Colt gold cup, but I miss my M1 Garand and M14 the most, I like wood and steel and maybe my 1st. wife (sorta). Semper Fi

 

[Samuraigg]

i opted for a m1 garand over a m1a because it "speaks to me"

plus being in CA, those legal extra 2 rounds come at the cost of being slower to reload. (i can reload a garand in the blink of the eye.) leaving enblocs on the run is pretty easy when you have hundreds of them, and you dont have to test them for reliability like a detachable magazine.

it really boils down to what you have when it all hits the fan.

is a 43 and change inches long, 60+ year old, non modular design the best rifle for all situations???? of course not. but if it works, and you can shoot it and maintain it, its better than a sharp stick.

just make sure you buy a short to mid range carbine, a shotgun, and a pistol to compliment your MBR and you are set. that covers all the bases

I'm right with you there. I was considering buying an M1A, mainly as THE goto rifle for me for emergencies. But as I sat and thought about it.. it seemed like a waste of money to me seeing as how I just bought a Garand. The advantage I saw in the M1A is that I could use 20rd magazines compared to the 8 round clips. But with the Garand, I don't have to worry about buying and maintaining those magazines. I have as much ammunition as I can carry, already loaded into the enbloc clips without having to worry about carrying and reloading those magazines. Plus, I'm a beginner and even I'm already getting VERY fast at reloading the Garand.. its so easy. And of course, the Garand is so much fun to shoot at the range! And lets face it, despite all we talk about SHTF on this forum, the likelihood is that the only place I'll ever have to shoot it is for fun at the range.

Next summer I am buying an M1 Carbine. The carbine and rifle, along with my .45, seem like all I would ever need for SD or any other situation that might come up.

Sorry to derail the thread, but I wanted to put in my .02