I just got the latest Graf & Sons flyer and see they are now selling black powder under their name. Does anyone know who the manufacturer is? They've got a killer deal going on it right now -- $9.99/lb, buy 25lbs and get the hazmat fee waived.
Graf Black Powder
- Thread starter BenW
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I too have been wondering if this BP is any good. I have not seen anything writen about this brand of BP sold under the Graf label. I see that no one has made a reply since the original post, hopefully someone has had time since then to post their results.
Father Knows Best
Member
I'm not gonna try it without hearing others' results, first. After all, I can get Goex for $9.30/pound (in 25 pound lots) from Powder, Inc. Even with the HazMat added in, the cost is still only $10.10/pound, and it's a known quality product. If I want the cheap stuff, Powder, Inc. has KIK for $8.10/pound and Skirmish FFFg for $6.75/pound.
unspellable
Member
Graf & Sons powder
I have recently acquired two pounds of this, one 1F and one 2F. Mostly on account of the local store suddenly had this instead of Goex. Around here you're lucky to get black powder at all let along get picky about the brand.
I have it for a .69 bore cannon. Have to find something in the way of balls before I can shoot it.
I have recently acquired two pounds of this, one 1F and one 2F. Mostly on account of the local store suddenly had this instead of Goex. Around here you're lucky to get black powder at all let along get picky about the brand.
I have it for a .69 bore cannon. Have to find something in the way of balls before I can shoot it.
RugerOldArmy
Member
This was discussed a few times on the Muzzleloader mailing list. The Grafs powder was said to be the same as the 'Wano' brand powder that was pretty commonly available 5-ish years ago. Good stuff. I'd prefer it to Elephant, but rather have Swiss.
Old Dragoon
Member
Probably everyone but me knew this;
Elephant Black Powder company folded 3 years ago.
Luckily I have 7 # FFG and 3# FFFG. Now I don't want to shoot it up. Oh well! I'll try some of the Graff or maybe Swiss when I need it agin. Bought 15# 5 years ago from a guy getting out of BPCR for $10.00 bucks. I knew it was a good buy, but I didn't know how good till now.
Elephant Black Powder company folded 3 years ago.
Luckily I have 7 # FFG and 3# FFFG. Now I don't want to shoot it up. Oh well! I'll try some of the Graff or maybe Swiss when I need it agin. Bought 15# 5 years ago from a guy getting out of BPCR for $10.00 bucks. I knew it was a good buy, but I didn't know how good till now.
Across The Pond
Member
finlander said:
Wow!!
I promise never to complain about UK prices again! (to those that know me here, that will be welcome news...
)ATP
Sometimes, it gets ridiculous.
Nobody in the 3-county area near me stocks real black powder, because their insurance premiums would go through the roof.
I had to drive 140 miles over the weekend to pick up 2 pounds of Goex Cartridge Grade and 2 pounds of Goex FFFg.
Next time, looks like I'll be eating the Hazmat fee and just getting the stuff mail-order.
Nobody in the 3-county area near me stocks real black powder, because their insurance premiums would go through the roof.
I had to drive 140 miles over the weekend to pick up 2 pounds of Goex Cartridge Grade and 2 pounds of Goex FFFg.
Next time, looks like I'll be eating the Hazmat fee and just getting the stuff mail-order.
Duncaninfrance
Member
finlander said:
I just looked up some prices here in France.
I am currently using up some SNPE Poudre Noir de Chasse (Hunting) which costs $18 for 500g. ( 1.1lb )
1F is $20.40
2F is $22.87
4F is $31.17
You have to go and collect though and I have to go into Bordeaux which is a 60 mile round trip.
Duncan
dpote
Member
Graf's black powder is good stuff. I use the 3F in everything here. (.357 Mag, .44 Mag, 20 Ga shottie, and cap 'n ball.
The label reads "Wano Pulver" so I think it may be the sweepings from the Wano factory in Germany. My '58 runs a lot cleaner on this than Goex.
Be safe,
Dave
The label reads "Wano Pulver" so I think it may be the sweepings from the Wano factory in Germany. My '58 runs a lot cleaner on this than Goex.
Be safe,
Dave
My order arrived and I got a chance to do some testing of the Graf powder. The first thing I did was to compare the volume vs. weight of Swiss, Goex, and Elephant against the Graf powder. I used a 100gr volume measure for all the measurements.
Graf 2F= 102.6 avg.
Swiss 2F= 106.6 avg
Elephant 2F= 104.4 avg
Graf 3F= 98.7 avg
Goex 3F= 97.8 avg
Next I went out a shot some of it to see how it performed against other powders. All of the testing was done with a Ruger 77/50, RWS caps, Harvester crush 50/45 sabots and a Lee 300gr FN cast bullet was used. During testing the only variable was the powder charge.
Graf 2F 120gr= 1455fps ES48 SD18
Elephant 2F 120gr= 1438fps ES37 SD21
Swiss 2F 120gr= 1724fps ES13 SD6
Swiss 2F 100gr= 1591fps ES13 SD4
Pyro RS 100gr= 1495fps ES29 SD14
I also tried the Graf 3F against Goex 3F, but testing was very limited. Using Goex 3F with 100gr volume gave a velocity of 1487fps. The same load using Graf 3F gave 1400fps.
During testing a few things were apparent that are worth mentioning. Swiss gave the highest velocity of the real black powders tested. The Swiss 2F performance was similar to Pyrodex P. One thing that the Swiss did that no other powder did, was it would vaporize the RWS cap. The whole nipple area would turn copper after a few shots and there was no cap to remove. After firing Swiss, I noticed that the fouling in the barrel was white. Black powder (Goex,Graf,Elephant) is either canary yellow or lt. green. I found this strange and began to wonder if the Swiss add some other secret ingredient. That might help explain its' superior performance. The Graf powder appears to have a performance level similar to Elephant Brand powder, which is lower than Goex. The Graf was cleaner burning than Elephant and about the same or better than Goex. The Graf powder showed the same accuracy potential as other blackpowders in my rifle, taking into consideration the limited testing. All things considered, I think that Graf Powder has potential and a good alternative to those who liked Elephant Brand powder.
Graf 2F= 102.6 avg.
Swiss 2F= 106.6 avg
Elephant 2F= 104.4 avg
Graf 3F= 98.7 avg
Goex 3F= 97.8 avg
Next I went out a shot some of it to see how it performed against other powders. All of the testing was done with a Ruger 77/50, RWS caps, Harvester crush 50/45 sabots and a Lee 300gr FN cast bullet was used. During testing the only variable was the powder charge.
Graf 2F 120gr= 1455fps ES48 SD18
Elephant 2F 120gr= 1438fps ES37 SD21
Swiss 2F 120gr= 1724fps ES13 SD6
Swiss 2F 100gr= 1591fps ES13 SD4
Pyro RS 100gr= 1495fps ES29 SD14
I also tried the Graf 3F against Goex 3F, but testing was very limited. Using Goex 3F with 100gr volume gave a velocity of 1487fps. The same load using Graf 3F gave 1400fps.
During testing a few things were apparent that are worth mentioning. Swiss gave the highest velocity of the real black powders tested. The Swiss 2F performance was similar to Pyrodex P. One thing that the Swiss did that no other powder did, was it would vaporize the RWS cap. The whole nipple area would turn copper after a few shots and there was no cap to remove. After firing Swiss, I noticed that the fouling in the barrel was white. Black powder (Goex,Graf,Elephant) is either canary yellow or lt. green. I found this strange and began to wonder if the Swiss add some other secret ingredient. That might help explain its' superior performance. The Graf powder appears to have a performance level similar to Elephant Brand powder, which is lower than Goex. The Graf was cleaner burning than Elephant and about the same or better than Goex. The Graf powder showed the same accuracy potential as other blackpowders in my rifle, taking into consideration the limited testing. All things considered, I think that Graf Powder has potential and a good alternative to those who liked Elephant Brand powder.
unspellable
Member
Ingredients
Assuming true black powder the differences from one brand to another lie chiefly in the charcoal used and some what in the milling process. Oddly enough, pure carbon makes very poor powder. It is surmised that the impurities in the charcoal act as a catalyst.
Swiss is notable as the only black powder that is capable of producing a regulated load in a black powder double barreled cartridge rifle. Which says that all other modern powders are different than the powder they made in the "good old days". Doesn't say one way or the other about Swiss, just that it can duplicate the results.
Assuming true black powder the differences from one brand to another lie chiefly in the charcoal used and some what in the milling process. Oddly enough, pure carbon makes very poor powder. It is surmised that the impurities in the charcoal act as a catalyst.
Swiss is notable as the only black powder that is capable of producing a regulated load in a black powder double barreled cartridge rifle. Which says that all other modern powders are different than the powder they made in the "good old days". Doesn't say one way or the other about Swiss, just that it can duplicate the results.
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