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Gun Bill of Sale Vs. Gun Transfer

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Darth-Vang, Mar 29, 2020.

  1. Darth-Vang

    Darth-Vang Member

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    Which one is better? Concerning ownership transfer? Which route should I go to if I don’t want problems biting me in the rear later down the road? Anyone with experience? And does it really happen if the person you sold it to makes a bad decision to commit a felonious crime and gets you drag into it too?
     
  2. Darth-Vang

    Darth-Vang Member

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    And is the Gun Bill of Sale even legit without notarizing it?
     
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  3. denton

    denton Member

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    A bill of sale is a document provided by the seller, to the buyer, so that the buyer has proof of ownership.

    If you want a document from the buyer to the seller acknowledging the transfer, it's a receipt.

    Somehow the firearms community has gotten the bill of sale thing twisted around backwards.
     
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  4. Darth-Vang

    Darth-Vang Member

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    I thought it goes both ways? It protects both the buyer and seller. I’d imagine no one wants to buy a stolen gun, or get drag to court for selling it to someone who commits a crime weeks or days later...those kind of things.
     
  5. jdc1244

    jdc1244 Member

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    Federal law doesn’t require record-keeping or bills of sale with regard to private intrastate transactions.

    It’s appropriate for both buyer and seller to verify each is a resident of the same state where the transaction is taking place with state issued IDs.
     
  6. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    When selling, I have offered, if the buyer is interested, to do a carbon-copy of buyers name and address, firearm serial number, date of sale, and we both sign, then each get a copy. That way, I have proof of when I no longer had possession, and buyer has proof of ownership, if either is ever needed. Some take me up on it, some don't. Since I only sell to people I know, or with paperwork at the LGS, I am fine either way.
     
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  7. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    If you want to feel safer about the sale go through an FFL. The FFL's records will show that the firearm came from you, to the FFL, and from the FFL to the buyer. The FFL will conduct a background check in order to determine if the buyer can legally own a firearm. You don't show what state you reside in so you will need to check with state law regarding gun sales.
     
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  8. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    I only do face to face sales. I ask to see a TX driver's license and CHL/LTC.
     
  9. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    It also depends on what state you live in. In Louisiana there is no paperwork needed when selling a firearm. Some people prefer a bill of sale, just to have a record of sale.
    The only time I use a FFL to transfer a gun is when I sale a handgun to someone that lives out of state because it is required.
    Now for the other her side of the coin.
    If you sell a gun and it later turns up at a crime scene, pickup on a search warrant, or taken off a criminal, this is what happens. If your local Law Enforcement office, or the one that picked it up, uses NIBIN, the gun will be testified and interred into the BATF NIBIN National database. The cartridge case markings, which are like fingerprints, will be compared to cartridge cases from Crime Scenes. If there’s a match, it will be up to the Agency that interred it to further the investigation.
    Also the Agency will do an ATF trace on the gun. It will start with the manufacturer, or importer and follow the paperwork trail. You may or may not be contacted.
    I know these things because I’m a NIBIN Examiner and my friend does the ATF traces for my department.
     
  10. Darth-Vang

    Darth-Vang Member

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    That’s interesting. I live in Oklahoma. I know that Oklahoma doesn’t require any gun transfer at ffls or bill of sale. I’m just trying to cover my own rear and not wanting to have headaches. So could the seller be prosecuted and or charged for any liability by the victim’s family or by state, etc... any possible charges that they could bring up should they decide to go after the seller? I’ve read that with bill of sale, I could just “point” the authorities elsewhere should they knock on my door(s).
     
  11. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    If the authorities trace a firearm to you (mostly if you are the first buyer from factory or in a database in a registration state) you just have the duty to inform the LEO or whomever that you saw a in state ID and they told you they were not a prohibited person. You kept no record of that sale and that is the end of it unless your state requires each transfer to be recorded or such thing. In that case point them to the LGS that facilitated the transfer. You DO NEED TO know your states rules for firearm transfers and abide by them if more stringent than federal rules.

    If there is nothing other than ATF rules a person to person sale carries the same weight as a sale of a fishing pole, 2X4, or can of beans between the two parties. Going to worry if the other party burns themself with hot beans? Not me!
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  12. Coyote3855

    Coyote3855 Member

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    Wyoming does not require that a FTF transfer go through an FFL. I believe that Colorado and some other states do.
     
  13. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    It also depends on the state you live in and how liberal the courts are. But I have never seen where someone that sold a gun to another person that could legally possess it ever got in trouble.
     
  14. gunlaw

    gunlaw Member

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    A notary seal doesn’t make a document “legal” it verifies that the signatures are authentic.
     
  15. Navy87Guy

    Navy87Guy Member

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    Whenever I sold a gun FTF, I always made a copy of the license/ID and had the buyer sign a statement that he was not prohibited from owning a gun. That way I had documentation of my “due diligence” if anything ever happened. Not required, but more of a CYA thing.

    It never happened, but if ever got a “weird” vibe from a potential buyer, I would have walked away from the sale. ;)
     
  16. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Well, a couple issues.
    As noted above, there are differences for every State.

    Also, there is no real law associated with this sort of paperwork, either for or against. (Other than in those states that require an FFL for transfer.)

    Ask this question on arfcom and you'll drown in flames in just the first hour. after asking this question. Now, when selling, I've always made up a receipt for my records. What the buyer does with their copy is not my concern. In full disclosure, I have generally verified the bona fides of the buyer in advance, at least verbally (email), so I'm good there. I have this reflex on this the same as I would if I was making a large purchase of livestock. If I were buying a car, I'd have the pinkslip in my pocket.

    There are dissenters out there, and they are legion. "Ah doan wahn no paperwork on meh evuh!" Fine. Wad this up and throw it away. There is nothing in human invention that human guile has not found a way to corrupt and evade. It's a token, that's all.
     
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  17. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Some states require transfers to be done at a FFL for a private transaction. In those states, obviously, follow your state law so you don't get into hot water.

    That aside I have only done a 4473 once for a private firearm transaction. Girlfriend at the time bought me a firearm as a gift and I had to buy it off her and do the transfer when we split. She was quite a vindictive woman. Otherwise I always offer a bill of sale/receipt when I am buying or selling a firearm in a private transaction. Some people take me up on the offer, most do not. I always do one of two things: see their DL to make sure they reside in the same state or make a point to look at their vehicle tag before the transaction. If I were asked to do a transfer by FFL, I would be partially annoyed based on convenience but would still find a way to get it done. Making a bill of sale or receipt on a computer is much faster if you know what you are doing, and offers just enough CYA paperwork.
     
  18. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

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    There is no benefit to getting a receipt unless required by law. I wouldn't give one or ask for one. But that is my opinion here in Texas.
     
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  19. George P

    George P Member

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    Sorry, I am NOT giving you my name and address. In today's world with hacking, etc. NO way is that happening with someone I met through an online ad.
     
  20. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    Some years ago I had a firearm stolen and subsequently recovered. After the court case the DA (recently from MASS) would not release my rifle back to me without a bill of sale or 4473 in hand. It took some education from the local PD and Sheriff's department for him to understand that in a free state one does not need a bill of sale to prove ownership. I sarcastically asked if I had to dig up my grandfathers grave to get him to give me a bill of sale for a rifle he had given me as a 10 year old. I did get it back after a short wait and with an apology however.
     
  21. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    On the pre formatted BoS I keep saved on my computer, there is a place for name and address. But I will not require it be filled out just for my records. Most of the time, those who do not mind a BoS for a firearm will fill it out anyway. Same when I ask to see someone's DL in a face to face transaction. They can cover up their name and address with a finger. Just as long as I see the picture and "Alabama" up top.
     
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  22. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    I wouldn't, either. I don't advertise, I either sell to friends or family, and already know where they live, or I have a 4473 showing that I transferred it to a FFL. And, if the buyer does not want a receipt, that is fine with me.
     
  23. Darth-Vang

    Darth-Vang Member

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    What would happen to the gun if no one claims it? Just asking out of curiosity. Do they keep it? Scrap it?
     
  24. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

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    One of them steals it
     
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  25. Heir Kommt Die Sonne

    Heir Kommt Die Sonne Member

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    Yep, this happens in some areas. People don't fully understand the law regarding firearms ownership, and thus think it's required you have 'registration papers'.
    That's why I think it's a good idea to ask for any copies of FFL transfers, 4473 forums, etc when buying a firearm, in case later there's a authority of the government who thinks you need this to have your firearm back.
     
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