gun case compromised / air travel

[hops]

Had a just dandy airport weekend - I may start driving from PDX to SJC.
In PDX TSA was going through just about every other piece of checked luggage. I had to loiter there for 15 minutes before I was requested to prive key to my gun case. TSA even turns on your video camcorder to see if it really is a video camcorder (someone else's luggage). My garment bag was searched too.

Was in security line, a Frenchman behind me. He seemed to not mind the sheep search. I pointed out that there are lots of devices not caught by their scanners/search. I said once one of these items is used, we'll have to take off our clothes and put on organge jump suits to make certain we have nopthing on us. He seems to like that idea - pulling my leg???

Highlight was the co-pilot who knew HK Corp and its tool portfolio. Indicated to me that he had a MP5. Did not have real time to chat thought (I was wearing my HK polo-shirt.

The flight back - SJC requires that you give your unlocked gun case to Airline worker who takes it to TSA, who are to lock it and then I get the key back. I've argued. but being behind enemy lines I just deal with it - lest I get to say in the PRK longer than I care to.

I had the firearm in case with slide locked back. make it painfully obvious that gun is a gun that is unloaded. No need for TSA to handle the gun - or rack the slide to see for themselves. Yea right.

Get to PDX - wait long time for gun case. Last person there still waiting for gun case at luggage turnstile.

Go to airline baggage Customer Service and ask for my gun case. Oh, looky there it is on the counter. Looks a bit strange. Oh, s&*T, the case has been broken - where the case is hinged for opening, the hinge is broken. One lip (both lips of the hinge are attached to 4 or 5 screws - top lip is no longer attached to the screws.

I check to see if gun is still in the case. I them unlock the case and notice that the gun has its slide no longer locked back - TSA touched it I guess. TSA also did not tumble the combination lock (case has double lock, key and combination - yes each controls a seperate locking device.)

Airline CS cut me a check for the case right there- they were very nice about it. So no complaints there. I'll send a nice CS letter - they only did their job, but I've been in CS and also had a nice letter to VP level for just doing my CS job back the.

Now - was the case tampered with in SJC or PDX. Did crock(s) see it was a gun and said ' we do not want that since the teads will not be involved if stolen'. Meaning that the croock's were looking for other valuables not triggering a Federal investigation in to their little operation?

I've contacted the manufacture - letting them know how the case failed, if I have some warranty, where to get a new one and if they want the broken one sent back for their own internal forensics?

I've taken digital pics for my records.

Should I, or which Federal.ORG group to I contact on this?

I'm still pissed about the case - had it for 3 years and only known of 1 attempt to see what is in case - but not like this.

 

[fjolnirsson]

One more reason not to fly.
I'm glad I have no reason to ever get on an airplane.

 

[CrudeGT]

I agree with fjolnirsson. I had friends who work as 'throwers' (not sure if that's the real term, but ever since Fight Club, that's what I call them). And I know how friendly they handle the luggage. I would never trust any of those monkeys to handle my firearm, not matter how locked up it was. It either stays at home, or I drive. And i only fly if there are no roads between where I'm at and where I'm going. I like long drives.

That does suck that someone messed with your case. I'm glad to hear that the gun was not stolen. It might be a good idea to have a smith look over it, and make it wasn't dropped, or damaged in some way. Would you be able to post those pics, just so we can get an idea of how the case was tampered?

 

[Stickjockey]

Hops-

As someone who works for an airline, apologies for your case and I'm glad to see that the airline was good to replace the case. (Alaska or Horizon, perhaps?) If you fly again, (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't) you might try printing out hte regulations from the TSA website. I know someone else here has done just that. The way I read it, the only person who's supposed to have access to the key to your gun case after you've locked it is you. If they ask for it, they're breaking their own regulations. You can open it for them, but only for them to verify that it's unloaded. They are not to touch anything. I'd contact either the head of TSA in the city in which it happened, or try to get in touch with someone higher up from the website.

Even to those of us in the industry, TSA= :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Pilgrim]

I have flown once with a pistol in my luggage. Horizon Air from Fresno to Spokane. I asked for guidance from the Air Alaska/Horizon website and was given instructions on how to pack my pistol. I followed them and had no problems whatsoever. I commented to the baggage agent and the TSA inspector that went exceedingly well. They responded, "That's because you followed the instructions."

Pilgrim

 

[Average Guy]

My brother, a pilot for Continental Express, went through the same thing at LAX with his Glock 23. Apparently TSA went by the book in Cleveland, but at LAX, the "senior" TSA guy took the case behind the screen, inspected the case and locked it, then returned the key to my brother. We looked at each other, and he voiced what we were both thinking: "You did not let me watch you inspect the case; how do I know my gun is even still in there?" I don't think he got a straight answer beyond "That's just the way we do it." IIRC, he pressed the guy enough so that he was taken behind the screen to witness the process again. Sheesh.

 

[Frohickey]

hops, and others...

Lookey here... the TSA (Baggage Gestapo) own website has the TSA regulation for checking of firearms.

On page 8354,
Section 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosivees, and incendiaries by individuals.
Section 1540.111 subsection c, 2, iv The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.
On page 8367,
Section 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.
Section 1544.203 subsection f, 2, iii The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and

Sure sounds clear cut to me that the passenger/individual check the baggage is supposed to retain the key or combination. (Though, a bit of a clarification/rewording should be done on S1544.203 to make sure that 'individual checking the baggage' does *NOT* mean screener.)

Anyone want to make a stink out of this, and maybe we can get Norman Mineta fired over this.

 

[Frohickey]

I think that we should try and remember the names of the TSA screeners that don't follow their own rules. Post it here, get them fired or demoted, or reread their own rules.

I was thinking of travelling with firearms (even though I would probably not shoot them after I land), just to get the baggage gestapo to get used to the idea of firearms.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Anyone want to make a stink out of this, and maybe we can get Norman Mineta fired over this.

He's got friends high up in the Republicrat and Democan parties in Washington, D.C.

 

[FMarlon]

has anyone ever tried to send it to themselves via ups so they can sign for it when the get where they are going?

 

[Treylis]

has anyone ever tried to send it to themselves via ups so they can sign for it when the get where they are going?

I think that for most folks, that would be illegal. Not all that conversant with firearms shipping laws, though--fact-check?

 

[larry_minn]

Yep would be nice if they did follow their own rules. I have been flying way too much last two years. For the forth of July I will be driving @ 1500 miles each way. The lack of Security and bother by show of it is part of reason.

 

[Finch]

I work for the TSA here in Vegas (LAS). I don't know how they do it in other cities, but here, if you touch a firearm in any manner other than to look beyond it, you can count on the black stripes to come hunting for you. We don't do anything to the firearm. To us, we go on the assumtion that you know what you are doing and the gun is unloaded. It's not TSA's job to ensure that the firearm is unloaded, if they tell you otherwise, get thier supervisor. They are the ones with black or red on their sholders. I'm sick of people giving the TSA a bad name, in vegas, or at least the airline (Alaska/Horizon) I work at, we treat peoples stuff with the upmost respect.

 

[BluesBear]

I think that for most folks, that would be illegal.

Then you think incorrectly.

Federal law clearly states that it's lawful to send firearms to yourself in a different state.

 

[mfree]

"Federal law clearly states that it's lawful to send firearms to yourself in a different state."

So you clearly have the option of having your firearms shipped with you and being present for almost every stage, or handing them to an anonymous goober in a brown/blue truck who will likely play kickball with it after loading a 400 pound refrigerator on top.

On a different, slightly related note, I wonder how well DHL shipping will do with package handling and firearms?

(yes, bad experiences with both Fedex and UPS. UPS has managed to both break things thought unbreakable, and break the moderately unbreakable in new and impressive ways. I "trust" neither with anything I find truly important.)

 

[sendec]

In my experience, the firearms handling portions of my flights have been the most positive thing about air travel. In my experience, the TSA people have had me unlock the cases and one checks thru them while the other "distracts" me. I was unaware that they were not to handle firearms, but it seems like a given that they would have to in order to perform a competent search. I mean, if you are going to go thru my belongings at least do it like you mean business.

They have also wrapped "inspected" tape around my cases - it would be immediately apparent if they were tampered with. I suppose there is nothing to prevent you from putting on your own seals if you felt the need. I have used plastic seals and cable ties after bag check just to be certain.

 

[M16]

I fly frequently with firearms and have never had a problem. Just follow the rules and have a copy of them with you. It is not uncommon to have to go to the baggage claim area to get your firearms. I actually like them holding them for me. Quiet often your luggage is on the belt before you get there. This keeps people from snatching your firearms as nobody hardly ever checks baggage claim tags. So get a copy of the airline's rules on which your are flying. Get a copy of TSA's rules. Keep them with you and enjoy your flight.

FMarlon, That is was a good one about having UPS deliver your guns! I would trust the airlines and TSA any day before I would trust the known firearm thives at UPS.

As far as turning on the video camera to see if it works don't you think they ought to. how hard would it be to remove the guts and pack it with explosives. Anything battery operated gets a close inspection.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Despite all the inspection, the skies are safer not because of what is being done on the ground but because of the mindset of "we, the people." None of us will sit by idly while a flight attendant is harmed or the cockpit is assailed. We'd beat them with our fist, feet and with our soda cans slung in a sock.

BTW, the TSA had me open my gun case to inspect my incomplete flintlock rifle. It had only the barrel (with lugs but no pins) and the wood stock. No buttplate, lock, trigger, trigger guard. I think they realized after they opened the box that it was unfinished and non-operational. They must have appreciated the relief carving as the guy gave me a smile and a thumbs up when he returned the key.

Finch - not to put you on the spot, but where in the TSA rules are blackpowder firearms regulated? Thanks in advance.

 

[Kodiak AK]

I did Cargo monkey a few years bck for Pen Air . I fully admit most of them give two squirts about luggage . Personaly when ever a gun case came thru I did my best to handle it with care at all times . Most of these guys are up here for the hunt of a lifetime , and it would suck if I knocked the glass loose or did anything else that could screw up thier dream hunt .

 

[SAWBONES]

hops, I had a similar experience a couple weeks ago flying from AL to UT.

The TSA folks in Mobile clearly DIDN'T know the regulations, and when I picked up my checked luggage at the end (Moblile to SLC via Atlanta), I found that the outer locked hardside case had been pried open, this in spite of having already opened the outer and inner cases, and "shown clear", then locked both cases again, for the TSA personnel in Mobile.

I guess all I can say is, what can you expect from "bottom of the barrel" personnel paid minimum wages? You're bound to run into some dummies within TSA who abuse their "little brief authority" by asking impertinent questions, demanding unlawful information (I was asked for the combinations to the inner and outer cases multiple times by the TSA people in Mobile), or illegal breakage.
OTOH, most of my other experiences with TSA personnel elsewhere have been quick, courteous and painless.

 

[Frohickey]

Okay, I sent email to the TSA...

I sent this email to the TSA about the unclear wording of Section 1544.203.

=====

Hello,
I would like to point to your attention *MISLEADING* wording in Section 1540.111 and Section 1544.203.

In Section 1540.111, subsection c, 2, iv, it states "The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the *passenger* retains the key or combination.

However, in Section 1544.203, subsection f, 2, iii, it states "The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the *individual checking the baggage* retains the key or combination"

The intent is that the *passenger* and the *individual checking the baggage* to be the same person, and that neither means the security screener.

The wording should be changed in Section 1544.203.f.2.ii to be identical to Section 1540.111.c.2.iv. This would remove any ambiguity on what the passenger is supposed to do when checking their baggage, as well as what the security screener should have the passenger do when screening baggage.

Sincerely,
********

 

[mpthole]

SAWBONES - good to see you posting again. Seems like its been a while.

I guess all I can say is, what can you expect from "bottom of the barrel" personnel paid minimum wages?

Isn't that what we had before the TSA? Seems to me as there as the more things change the more things stay the same... Remeber that catch-phrase when the powers that be were trying to get the TSA created, "You don't professionalize until you federalize!"

 

[45 ACP]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

hops:

I had a similar experience at SJC. I flew Southwest from SNA to SJC with my handgun. From SNA to SJC, no problem. Ticket agent had me sign the white/red declaration, place one copy in the case, lock it in her presence and then tagged my case with the destination tag. The case was waiting safe and sound in the baggage service office in SJC. A quick flash of the 'ol ID and tag receipt and I was on my way.

Now, when I checked into SJC to go home it was a different story. The ticket agent asked me to unlock and open the case. As I was signing the white/red declaration, the ticket agent *attempted* to remove the case from my presence without locking it. Bad move.

After voicing my objections, the ticket agent stated that the TSA would inspect the case OUTSIDE OF MY PRESENCE and lock it when they are done. "Uh-uh, I don't think so" was my trite response. Ticket agent stated that if I didn't comply, I would be denied boarding. "Best you get your supervisor immediately. I would also suggest you have him/her bring along a TSA agent."

After speaking with the agent's supervisor in the presence of 2 TSA agents, the ticket agent was IMMEDIATELY removed from working the counter. The ticket agent's supervisor informed me that he would be placed in "remedial policy education" (his words, not mine.)

The TSA agent (very nice man BTW) took me downstairs to the CTX room. He took my LOCKED case behind the double doors to screen it. After returning with the case, he indicated that the case needed to be opened for a visual inspection. I unlocked the case, locked the slide to the rear, showed the agent my empty magazines, and then dropped the slide and hammer and locked the case. At NO TIME did said TSA agent even ATTEMPT to handle the firearm.

What did I learn?

The TSA agent and his supervisor in SJC told me EXACTLY what Finch said. NO TSA agent is supposed to handle a firearm in ANY manner. What differs from airport to airport is the method in which further screening is conducted. For example, in SNA the ticket agent took my case after I had locked it. If TSA found a need to conduct a secondary inspection of the case, they would have paged me over the P.A. to "...pick up a white courtesy phone". If I didn't respond, neither myself nor my case would be flying that day.

However, in SJC the policy is/was to have the passenger present until such time that TSA was satisfied that the case was ready to be loaded onto the aircraft. I never entered the CTX room (thereby breaking the security protocol of, "No unauthorized personnel allowed in this area"), but at the same time the TSA NEVER handled my firearm and NEVER had possession of an unlocked case outside of my presence.

I agree with M16 and others who point out that you should have a copy of the rules with you. I will never allow my unlocked cases outside of my immediate custody and control, but your choices may differ.

In the interest of full disclosure, I would estimate that I have flown with firearms in checked baggage at least 27 times in the last 3 years and the above mentioned "incident" is the ONLY time I have ever had any sort of problem.

IMHO, it seems to help when your destination is Texas.

hops:

I'm sorry your cases were compromised. I believe this is good justification to use heavy-duty cases (I'm not sure if you did or not so I'm not trying to pass judgement here).

I also use Master brand thick shank padlocks. If you want to open my cases without me being around, bring a crowbar.

 

[hops]

45ACP -

Your experience at SJC was in Terminal A - a newer terminal. Mine was in Terminal C the ancient and once only terminal. I did a huff and puff thing 18 months ago and got nowhere - short of really making a scene. 2 months later - same thing and I had the regs on me. Airline counter person told me that this was as per TSA instructions to them. Wrote the airline and TSA. Got a nice letter from airline telling me I had to deal with TSA on the issue. Never heard from TSA.

Perhaps TSA has trained more people finally and/or TSA is too lazy at Terminal C to come forward.

I guess I'll go to the huff-and-puff scene again the next time with new copies of the regs. Also, someone handled the gun, since I passed it off with slide locked back and I got with the slide forward. I always pass it off slide locked back. So in light of a cracked/broken guncase ( I suspect baggage employee theft ring), and gun touched by TSA, and SJC illegal proceedure, I'm still in a rather foul mood. I suspect they used a crowbar on my case.

I've only had issues at SJC in the last 3 years - post 9/11. PDX TSA checks my guns as per your experiences outside of SJC. About 16 trips with guns during the last 3 years. So our experiences are about the same for the most part.

In 33 years of airline flying and this is my first severe damage claim - which the airline handled very promptly, so at least there was some positive experience (other than the gun not being kidnapped).

 

[Finch]

Finch - not to put you on the spot, but where in the TSA rules are blackpowder firearms regulated? Thanks in advance.

As far as I know, any small arms can travel. Hell, I remember once I saw a case with 3 USP's in it. All had attached suppressors. In addition to that there were, what seemed to be, two tear gas launchers. I stood there for a while, after which I woke up and had to wipe the drool off my face. Anyways the BP rifle can fly, but black powder itself cannot.

I get a lot of frequent flyers telling me how much things are improving with the TSA. I hear horror stories all the time about some pompus TSA screener ruining people film, or snagging thier toy swords the get from the Excaliber. But things have improved a lot, and they are cracking down on some of the MENSA dropouts they have here. Not a week goes by that I don't hear about some genius who decided to take thing to far getting fired.