gun cleaning and my ND

[Heywood Case]

Gunsmith, I'm glad you're ok and thanks for posting your experience. I have seen this scenario described before, maybe more than once, so I think it is worth paying special attention to the adjustment to your practice:

"now I put the gun back in a holster after cleaning and reloading."

There is always a danger of complacency as one ges used to handling guns. When I read about experiences like this I know it makes me think much more carefully about what I am doing. Thanks.

John

 

[CajunBass]

I too am glad you're ok, and I too have had a ND, or in my case, a SD (stupid discharge). I blew a hole in the sides of a book case with a 1911, 45.

Funny thing though, I never heard it, nor did most anyone else in the house. My wifes Uncle who was visiting was the only one who heard anything, and he said he thought I'd "popped" a primer reloading. Bullet went through the bookcase, tore the tops off several books, out the other side, then smashed itself against the metal frame of a sliding glass window. It took me several seconds to realize what had happened. The magazine was out of the gun, so it went right back to battery after the shot of course, so fast I had no idea what had happened. Suddenly it hit me and it was like HOLY..........

 

[pax]

Glad you're okay, gunsmith. Thanks for sharing.

For the benefit of newbies, fence-sitters, and the complacent: The Four Rules ALWAYS apply -- even when cleaning a gun. Gunsmith isn't hurt because he habitually obeys the rules, and because of that good habit, he obeyed at least one of the rules even when he had a brain fart. But gunsmith had an ND at all because he did violate at least two and probably three of the rules.

The rules:

1) All guns are always loaded. This is the cardinal rule and all other safety rules follow naturally from it. Every single gun must always be treated with the respect you would give to a loaded weapon, at all times.

If you unload the gun and check twice that it is unloaded, then set the gun down -- it is loaded when you pick it up again. As gunsmith discovered, guns load themselves when you are not looking.

2) Do not point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

The reason gunsmith isn't hurt is because he instinctively and probably habitually followed this rule -- but a lot of people break it habitually. If you make a habit of breaking this rule when you think it is safe to do so, sooner or later your habit will cause you to break it when it is decidedly not safe to do so.

When cleaning, dryfiring, or otherwise handling a weapon, you must keep it pointed in a safe direction at all times. What's a safe direction? It is anywhere that you wouldn't mind putting a bullet. Anywhere where you would mind putting a bullet is not a direction to point your weapon. If the bullet would be stopped and only minor property damage would result, then it's probably a safe direction.

When you are handling it, think of your gun as a Star Wars lightsaber; anything it crosses will be cut in half.

The one and only exception to this rule is when the firearm is completely disassembled -- the slide is removed on a semi-auto, or the cylinder from a revolver. In such cases, the empty frame is no longer a gun.

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.

This does not apply only at the range. It applies everywhere, at all times. Even in your own home, you must follow this rule while disassembling your firearm for cleaning, while dryfiring, and every other time you are handling a weapon.

What's a target? It is anywhere you deliberately point your weapon and wouldn't mind putting a bullet.

If you haven't picked out a specific target, your finger does not belong on the trigger. It is that simple.

4) Be sure of your target, and of the backstop beyond your target.

If it won't stop a bullet, you shouldn't point a weapon at it.

Gunsmith -- sorry you had to serve as the lesson du jour. Glad you're okay! And I hope others are able to learn from your mistake, so that at least some benefit results from it.

pax

 

[Manedwolf]

The "hopefully a way to prevent a ND" I've adopted is that I never dry-fire anything unless I've put a snap cap in it. Just as a locked-down habit...no snap cap, no pull trigger, ever. And I also put a bit of bright neon enamel in a ring on the back of the snap caps, so I can see them in a second when pulling back the slide.

That, and all dry-fires are STILL aimed in a direction where a shot wouldn't hurt anyone.

 

[gunsmith]

this is a great thread

yup, what saved my last good knee was my habit of keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction. my right knee had an ACL replacement in 2004 and it's still a litlle shakey and sore and doesn't let me use a kneeling position to shoot.
also a .357 shot thru a knee can easily get the femoral artery and partys over.
the snap cap idea is a good one, just because you can dry fire don't mean ya have too. I will pick up some today.
and the target tip from pax, I usually aim at a very safe place when I dry fire, this time I didn't aim...oh and that tip on the patches...great!...and complacency, man that hits the nail on the head.
ears..I allways use plugs with tools and loud places

 

[Manedwolf]

yup, what saved my last good knee was my habit of keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction. my right knee had an ACL replacement in 2004 and it's still a litlle shakey and sore and doesn't let me use a kneeling position to shoot.
also a .357 shot thru a knee can easily get the femoral artery and partys over.
the snap cap idea is a good one, just because you can dry fire don't mean ya have too. I will pick up some today.
and the target tip from pax, I usually aim at a very safe place when I dry fire, this time I didn't aim...oh and that tip on the patches...great!...and complacency, man that hits the nail on the head.
ears..I allways use plugs with tools and loud places

If you get snapcaps, I much prefer the A-zoom ones. They're the full weight of a round (made of red-tinted aluminum) and thus can be used to test feeding, too, or actions in rifles. The lightweight Pachmayr (sp?) plastic ones will fail to feed right in some guns, they seem like they're more meant to be manually chambered for dryfires.

 

[Herself]

Brava, Pax! Extremely well put! I'm going to save a copy of that!

Lead/powder .38 Special rings in a .357: Flitz. Flitz. Flitz. Unless there's a lot, then use Hoppe's first and Flitz out the "unremovable" marks left afterwards. There is a reason you see that stuff for sale in so many gun shops!

Pointing the gun at the TV for dry firing: I used to do it all the time. I wouldn't mind destroying my TV. But it sits in front of a window, on the other side of which is the neighbor's garage (not used for a car). I'm betting they don't want a hole in their garage or all the garden supplies in it. It's definitely time to move the TV?
Maybe not. TV picture tubes make a big mess when they implode. And there's a patch of wall (plaster over brick) I don't like so much that's close by.

--Herself

 

[AStone]

Redundant redundancy about redundancy

IMO, this is a very powerful thread. Again, I thank gunsmith for starting it, and sharing his experience. Clearly he's touched off a valuable discussion.

Steve's story about the tragic shotgun ND was ... well, poignant, to say the least. I felt like walking away from the computer for a while to process that. As unpleasant as it is, it's an image that's going to live with me for a while.

I have an ND story of my own to relate that occured when I was about 13 or 14, but the story requires more time than I have to devote today. (Work cometh. Suffice for now: it turned out well with no one injured, but was one of those "could have been so much worse" things. It informs my "obsessive/compulsive" {NOT!}gun safety behavior to this day.)

Instead, for now, I want to commend the following paragraph.

It takes a real man to admit an ND in front of his peers. Most of us suffered an ND at one time or another including me. That's what the 4 rules of gun safety are for. If you somehow fail the first one the other rules keep you out of too much trouble hopefully.

Well said!

That's one of the main ideas that I'm going to take from this thread (which, by the way, I hope will have a very long and informative life of many pages over several years): the 4 rules of gun safety are redundant.

Hopefully one or more knowledgeable folks will add those rules to this thread. (<ahem> Ms. Pax, I'm glancing in your general direction, since you receite them so eloquently ... ) {Edited to add: ah ha, I see you've already done so. Excellent!}

I only want to reinforce the idea that the rules are redundant.

It reminds me of the way rock climbers operate.

<please pardon my momentary digression from the topic of guns>

I'm not climbing rock these days - there are no big wall near me here, and I'm too busy otherwise to drive to where they are - but I have done some climbing in the past on big granite walls in NM. (5.9, 2-pitch kind of stuff.)

I remember this procedure well: before starting to climb, tie one end of a rope to your harness (which you've already triple checked for strap security).

The other end of the rope is tied to your belayer's harness, which is, of course, strapped to your belayer ( ), who is anchored to multiple anchor points (in case any of them fail).

First, you both double check your own knots, then check each other's knots.

Why so much checking redundancy?

Because not "if" but WHEN you fall off of a vertical rock face from 90' up - it's all about pushing the envelope - Earth's gravitational acceleration constant (9.8m/sec/sec) dictates that you will have NO second chance if the knots fail.

Therefore, you practice temporal redundancy: check it once, check it twice, then let your climbing partner check it (just in case you spaced out the first two times).

In my book, the same applies to gun safety. (Of course, if I'm the only one in the room, then I'm solely responsible for checking, and my routine moves to a triple check.)

Nem

 

[Heywood Case]

Nem, as a former climber I am very much in agreemen with you. I think the most important aspect of both disciplines is that you can't rely on a rote understanding of the rules. You need to be actively considering the implications of what could happen in the event of a violation by accident or necessity, and you have to monitor yourself for signs of distraction. If something doesn't feel right, those with experience will stop, recheck everything, and make a decision on how to proceed. In both cases it can be hard to simply stop what you are doing and pack it in for the day, but I think it's worthwhile to do just that from time to time just for the sake of discipline. I haven't yet stopped in the middle of shooting or dry firing just because, but I sure have backed off a lot of climbs that didn't feel right to me. When you're shooting you don't have the pressure of maybe ruining your partner's day, so hopefully it would be easier to know when to stop.

John

 

[Kentak]

Thanks for sharing. No one should have the hubris to think this somehow *can't* happen to them because they are so gun-smart. It behooves all of us to *constantly* remind ourselves of and follow all the basic safety rules. Familiarity and competence with firearms is a good thing--unless it makes us careless.

Glad no one was hurt.

K

 

[sturmruger]

Thanks for posting this. The more of these I read the more I stive to be as safe as possible.


Thanks again

 

[alamo]

I had a similar experience 10 years ago. I was dry firing a revolver and the phone rang. I absently-mindedly reloaded while chatting. Set the gun down, talked awhile longer, about 10 minutes. Went back into the living room, picked the revolver to resume dryfiring. Pointed it in a safe direction - outside wall with brick behind it and BLAM!!! Scared the crap out of me but no harm done. Repaired the hole and painted over it & aired the house out before the wife got home.

Lesson learned.

 

[AStone]

I have an ND story of my own to relate that occured when I was about 13 or 14, but the story requires more time than I have to devote today.

I was just reading a newer thread about 'have you ever done something stupid with a gun' or something like that, and was reminded I never got back to this one to record that ND story.

So, given that it seems to belong here more than in the newer thread (which seems to be more about wearing a 1911 into a store, or leaving your weapon on a car hood as you drive off), here 'tis.

I was probably 13 or 14. I had acquired my first shotgun: a single shot 20 ga. Don't even remember who made it.

My father, who owned a gun but was not proficient with it (he had other talents that made up for it), wanted me to gain experience with it. So, one of his customers invited us to come out to their Sunday morning trap shoot.

We showed up, me carrying my 20 ga, openned, unloaded, to demonstrate I knew what was up.

Various folks demonstrated their proficiencies in exploding the clay pigeons.

Then, it was my turn.

I stepped up to the line, put a shell in the breach, closed the gun, all the while keeping it pointed downward (low ready, as it's now called).

Before the pigeon flew, however, the gun went off.

I didn't understand one of the four rules: keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire.

My finger was on the trigger, but adrenaline was pumping through me so hard that ... I pulled the trigger, discharging a 20 ga. #8 into the ground about 2' in front of my feet.

There was dead silence for about 4 sec, then the host spoke up and said,
"Well, hey, you did right to keep the gun pointed down."

There were some uncomfortable nods of agreement.

I reloaded, shaken by the experience.

Clay pigeon flew, and escaped, unbroken.

I think I hit the second one.

Suffice to say, that experience informs my understanding of firearms to this day: I consciously and explicitly keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire.

Nem

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Gunsmith...accidents happen. I cannot throw stones. I shot myself in the foot with a .22 when I was a teen trying to play quick draw. And non-gun related I hit a parked vehicle with the side of my car today. Doing a bit of damage to the car. The parked vehicle I hit was my very own truck.

 

[crazyXgerman]

thanks for being honest, guys, appreciate it. these are good stories and serve as a reminder that it can happen to anybody.

 

[cracked butt]

My ND wasn't done by me, but it was my fault all the same.
My wife wanted to go goose hunting about 8 years ago so I bought her a license. She had talked about how she used to occassionally trapshoot or shoot rodents in the backyard with her dad's .22. She had never been hunting before, but I ASSumed that she would be ok and safe. I didn't learn much about the rules until I took hunter safety course at age 12, and had been shooting for 6 years before that, and the rules seemed common sense at the time when I was taught them. I explained to her about how we would hunt the birds and told her that I would let her know where and when to get up to shoot. I didn't pound the 4 rules into her as I once again ASSumed that her smarts and common sense would be enough to keep me or others from getting shot. Later that day, she stood up in the blind when a flock of geese were hovering in, she swung the shotgun and pulled the trigger when it was aimed over my shoulder and the muzzle was about 4" from my ear. Yes a .357 or a .45 is going to be very loud in a deserted apartment or house, but a 12 guage waterfowl load at the muzzle is beyond painful. I still have ringing in that ear and get sick to my stomach when I think of what almost happened. I almost got my head blown off because I was too stupid to take the time to teach a beginner safety basics before handing them a shotgun and ammunition.

 

[f4t9r]

As many times as we have heard and know the safety rules , it happens and more likely when you are dealing with more then one gun at a time.