Gun Control In Australia - Politics Post

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Hey Guys,

Seeing as we are all under increacing pressure from the anti-gun lobby to stop resisting being part of a civilised society, and hand in our barbaric instruments of death (although getting some people to hand in their car keys would make the world a safer place IMO), you are all no doubt aware of the sweeping gun-law reforms we had here in Australia in 1996, and probably not aware of the latest lot aimed specifically at handguns, that we had in Nov, 2004....again sparked by some nutter on a rampage.

Before I make my posting, I will just say that I am NOT OPPOSED to gun control IN AUSTRALIA, and agreed fully with all the laws introduced in 1996 (although many were already in place). I know some of you will be reeling back in horror, but here, I am fine with gun control, and very tough laws/requirements/regulations/licencing/etc, so long at it is FAIR TO THE LEGITATE SPORTING SHOOTER. And trying strip away all handguns is not being fair, neither is banning all handguns above 0.38cal (that one passed in Nov). I can elaborate on that, should any of you want to question my thinking, in fact I am all for open friedly, and intelligent discussion. I am not interested in arogrant, brazen opinions.

Anyway, back to the point. I just wanted to post this artical here, as it breaks down the main tools of the anti-gunner, showing how the media was used to really place a lasting negative connotation on firearms owners. The source was: http://www.potfire.com.au/info/glaws.htm , it doesn't say who though Author is, but I suspect it was Rob Potter. He raises some interesting points, that can be seen in any country.
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http://www.potfire.com.au/info/glaws.htm

A Warning to the Rest of the Free World

In May 1996 35 people were killed by a lone gunman at Port Arthur, Tasmania. John Howard, Australia's recently elected Prime Minister, wasted no time in travelling to the scene of the tragedy to make all the right political noises, vowing on national television to ensure this could never happen again. The nation's shooting fraternity has been reeling ever since as it fights to save its sport.

In the two months following Port Arthur there has been a carefully calculated and well orchestrated media campaign to change the way the people of Australia think about gun laws. George Orwell would have been proud, as with their 1984 style tactics they have convinced themselves, and possibly the non-shooting public, that the majority of Australians support the Federal government in their anti-gun stance.

From the outset Howard seized the initiative. He promised to ban all military-style semi automatic weapons from civilian ownership. He also promised to have a close look at recent trends to release mental patients into the community to save money. The first was no surprise, as even the gun fraternity has been long expecting the loss of centrefire semi autos, and the second was a welcome sign that for once the blame was not to be placed wholly and solely on an inanimate object.

But no mention has since been made about mental health. Within days a draft agreement was made up for State Police Ministers to tighten all states' gun laws with the following major points:

1. A ban on all automatic and semi automatic firearms. This includes rimfires and shotguns. As a matter of interest, full autos have been illegal in mainland Australia for more than seventy years, but their reasons for including this will become obvious later.

2. A ban of all pump action shotguns.

3. National registration of all firearms.

4. Tough new criteria for granting a shooters licence (to include existing licence holders). Licences only granted to competitive target shooters who regularly attend ranges or regular hunters of feral pests who can produce letters from landowners. Personal protection is not a reason to own a gun.

5. A 28-day "cooling off" period for the purchase of any firearm (airguns included), regardless of how many firearms you already own.

A couple of states made noises that they would not follow Howard's guidelines. These soon faded to a whimper after Howard threatened to reduce their funding.

The ban on semi autos was modified to exclude pistols after a few days as it became obvious that our Olympic Team could be badly affected in Rapid Fire and Sport Pistol, and that could be too unpopular if we hope to hold the 2000 Olympics in Sydney. Besides, pistols are so well regulated they will be no problem to confiscate at a later date when the political climate is ripe.

In order to appease the growing howls of protest from shooters, the government decided to offer a buy-back scheme of all banned firearms. Of course, they would not fund this themselves, so they increased the Medicare Levy (medical benefit levy on all taxpayers) by 0.2% to cover the projected costs.

None of the events so far have been remarkable. What followed, and what continues, should be a warning to all free people of the world. The issues here are truth and freedom, and while the media is free to say what it likes, they are not held accountable should they bend the truth a little.
How to Bias an Issue Without Apparently Trying

1. Always quote the issue as being "the proposed ban on semi automatic and automatic weapons". It does not matter that no shooters own, and few have ever seen, a machine gun. If this phrase is repeated enough, and by a vast variety of quotable notables, the majority of people will believe that they are out there in their thousands, and feel appropriately insecure about it.

2. Never quote anyone from the gun lobby saying that automatics are already illegal. This is irrelevant.

3. Find a vocal redneck and videotape him until you can contrive a good quote out of him. Even if all he does is quote Thomas Jefferson: "When a country loses its freedom the only way to get it back is through blood in the streets". If you cut out all but the last four words and overlay an enthusiastic pro-gun meeting you can paint a creative vision of the country's gun lobby.

4. Take the country's most popular TV current affairs host and make banning guns his personal crusade.

5. Repeat the following as often as possible: "The vast majority of Australians are in favour of the Federal government's gun control measures". Whether they are or not, as Goebbles often said, if you repeat it often enough it will be true.

6. Always understate the numbers of protesters in pro-gun rallys, and only report them at all if you can not avoid it. Try to double the numbers at anti-gun rallys. Okay, so the pros outnumber the antis 10 to 1, but we're obviously takling about the silent majority here.

7. Take plenty of footage of the Prime Minister addressing a pro gun rally wearing a bullet proof vest under his suit. This just proves how dangerous they really are.

8. Say nothing about the fact that two-thirds of shooters will no longer be eligible to hold a licence, and that handing in their bolt actions, air rifles and single shots will bring them no compensation.

9. Give no air time to any logical, coherent or seemingly sane member of the gun lobby.

10. Make a big issue out of whether crimping mag tubes on shotguns will be allowed to limit capacity. Have Howard threaten a referendum if all states do not conform with his point of view, and as the vast majority so obviously support him, it would be a waste of $50 million anyway. It's also time to get another few public figures quoting the automatic thing again.

Their greatest moment came at a supposedly anti-gun meeting at the Gold Coast in Queensland. Howard arrived, was heckled all the way into the building, booed as he came on stage, and was given a hostile reception throughout his speech. With the aid of an imaginative editor the resulting television report showed him basking in the approving glow of an adoring audience. Bring me a bucket.

All through this the killer sat in a Tasmanian jail, later to be tried and convicted, now serving a life sentence. While there was a flurry of publicity about Martin Bryant straight after the massacre, the media have been strangely silent ever since, preferring to concentrate on the instruments they deem to be responsible. A few significant factors did slip out, however.

He was known to have psychological problems and had threatened people in the past. While they have not admitted he was on medication, Howard himself hinted that he may have been released from an institution. Police reopened several cases of deaths which they now consider to be suspicious (although we have heard nothing about them in months). One was Bryant's father, whose body with a bullet in the back of the head was found in a dam - this was originally considered a suicide, even though they never found the gun. In the week preceeding the shooting Bryant had approached several gun dealers trying to buy firearms and parts. As he had no licence he was not supplied, and in fact one dealer was so concerned he notified the police.

He was left to roam for more than two hours through Port Arthur, a historical site popular with tourists, shooting anyone he came across. How he was not stopped before this when Hobart, the state's capital, is a matter of twenty minutes away by road, remains a mystery. Police snipers had him in their sights after he had killed 32, so they are responsible for at least the final three deaths.

It could be argued that health authorities have a case to answer for Bryant to have been walking the streets. There is definitely a case of incompetence in the Tasmanian Police in firstly their reluctance to recognise the danger signs, and then their failure to deal effectively with the situation. But the most worrying aspect of all has been the media's ability to divert the entire responsibility of this tragedy on to the shooters of Australia.
 
O.K. so in Australia, one cannot defend himself with firearms, the police are not protection, and the existing gun laws(before the ban) failed to be enforced. Kind of leaves people open to any and all abuses by criminals or their government. The proverbial "rock and a hard place". The right of self-defense is a basic right that has been removed by the Australian government the way I read this article. Then the leap in "logic" holds that gun owners are responsible for all this?Tell me again why anyone would want to live there?
Josh
 
I'm surprised that this wasn't met with more civil unrest from your gun owner population. Seems they went "Quietly into the night" and gave up thier rights without to much of a fight. I can't say as I don't live there and then again, like the article indicated, underestimate the opposition or ignore them if you can. Seems like it worked. Guess there weren't to may "From my cold dead hand" types living in your country.

I think our politicians realize there would be civil war here if they tried to be that drastic. Hence the slow squeeze policy being used here. Seems people get used to the yoke if it's applied slowly. :(
 
Firearms are only for sport? I can see that if the sport originated with perforating red coats and remains the unstated goal of the sport in the modern era.

Too bad the lawful Aussies only ever presented a threat to paper and not the political order. Live with it.
 
Not Complicated

Your position on gun controle may seem moderate or sensible to you in comparison to the gun grabbers in your country.

Before I make my posting, I will just say that I am NOT OPPOSED to gun control IN AUSTRALIA, and agreed fully with all the laws introduced in 1996 (although many were already in place). I know some of you will be reeling back in horror, but here, I am fine with gun control, and very tough laws/requirements/regulations/licencing/etc, so long at it is FAIR TO THE LEGITATE SPORTING SHOOTER. And trying strip away all handguns is not being fair, neither is banning all handguns above 0.38cal (that one passed in Nov).

The above statement puts you to the left of most members here and you would be labeled a gun grabber, or some other less than endearing name if you were a politician here in the states.

We view gun ownership as a right to be exercised with responsibility. Not a privilege that can be stripped away at the wim of the sovereign.
 
Australia's gun laws

Interesting point is that the Tasmanian shooter purchased his gun from a local gunshop after it was sold on from the Victorian police after a local amnesty and it was handed in and the SOLD ON
 
Gun control is a sticky subject, especially among the shootng community, and even though the vast majority of shooters believe that *all* firearms should be legal, I am in the small minority who does agree with some form of gun control.


I do think that fully automatic arms should be controlled, and not banned, as is the situation here in the states. A tax stamp system is logical from my view-point, and the application system we have now would be fine in my opinion if the '86 transfer ban was lifted. It does bother me that the only people who are allowed to have class 3 firearms are the police, who, in my opinion, are the LAST people who should have access to them.

In the 1950's the FBI was an agency of detectives, gumshoe's who were the best investigators in the nation and men who did their jobs effectively and with pride; this was its purpose at its creation. Now, on the the other hand, the FBI (and ATF now too) are paramilitary soldiers dressed in black with machine guns and tanks.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but look at the Waco incident - those were not police tactics, those were military tactics. The constitution and other writings of the Founding Fathers clearly put power in the hands of the people and explicitly spoke out against police who acted like paramilitary's and pushed around common citizens.

Further arming the police and de-arming the citizenry is exactly why people interested in freedom (which seems to NOT include Australians) are worried.
 
Gun Control In Australia - Politics Post Reply to Thread

Complicated said:
I know some of you will be reeling back in horror, but here, I am fine with gun control, and very tough laws/requirements/regulations/licencing/etc, so long at it is FAIR TO THE LEGITATE SPORTING SHOOTER.

That reminds me of something I once read. The context is different but the sentiment is the same.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller
 
Originally Posted by Complicated
I know some of you will be reeling back in horror, but here, I am fine with gun control, and very tough laws/requirements/regulations/licencing/etc, so long at it is FAIR TO THE LEGITATE SPORTING SHOOTER.
A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

ps. What does LEGITATE mean?
 
I am not trying to start a flame war, here, but merely pointing out documented facts and truths.

Australia is still pretty much a British possession. British royalty still make "crown visits" there and the total population of Australia voted down a measure to become its very own republic and instead chose to remain a commonwealth of the British crown.

An elected Australian prime minister was removed from office by the British crown in the 1970s

In Australia, firearms ownership is not a right codified into a constitution.

In the US, firearms ownership is a right codified into a constitution.

The reason it is a right in the US is because instead of voting down a referendum on our independence, we wrested our independence away from Britain with arms.

Firearms ownership in the US is not merely about "sport."

Millions of guns are owned for sport in the US, but there are deeper underlying reasons for gun ownership in the US.

Which are just a few reasons why what you see as "reasonable" gun control in Australia is seen as completely unreasonable to us in the states.

hillbilly
 
I know some of you will be reeling back in horror, but here, I am fine with gun control, and very tough laws/requirements/regulations/licencing/etc, so long at it is FAIR TO THE LEGITATE SPORTING SHOOTER.

What if the government decides your "sport" isn't a sport any more? It's not very hard to ban hunting, skeet and trap shooting, target shooting...

I do think that fully automatic arms should be controlled, and not banned, as is the situation here in the states.

Not to be argumentative, but what's so special about a fully automatic firearm?
Is a full-auto M4 any more dangerous than a tricked out M4gery?
 
Complicated:

It is actually not that complicated:

freedom is good, tyranny is bad.

Repeat that for awhile, then think about "reasonable gun control".
 
Not to be argumentative, but what's so special about a fully automatic firearm?
Is a full-auto M4 any more dangerous than a tricked out M4gery?

Honestly, this (well, and the semiauto+hicap argument) is the one argument from my fellow pro-gunners that positively makes my blood boil. We're on the same side of the argument, here, but your tactic of argumentation here is so beyond logic that I have to rail against it.

What's so special about fully automatic weapons? They're fully automatic!
If there was nothing special about fullauto or semiauto weapons our military would still be using bolt-action rifles, because if fire-rate is unimportant, why would we waste time with marginally less-accurate systems? Be honest with yourself, an M4 with a 30-round magazine is, in fact, capable of more damage more rapidly than any M4gery with a 10-round AWB mag could ever hope to be, and both are vastly more capable of laying down a quantity of fire than poopaw's boltie.

Repeating over and over the mantra about semiautos being the same as manual guns, and full-autos being the same as semiautos defies logic and history, and just plain doesn't make any sense.

Apologies for the rather incoherent post.

~Slam_Fire
Also, before anyone jumps on me for being an evil gun-grabber for pointing out the illogical points in this argument, I'm certainly not. I'll argue 'till I'm blue in the face for the right of private citizens to own new-manufactured Class III NFA weapons, and for private citizens to own, free from government asshattery, semiautomatic firearms will full-capacity mags, drums, hoppers and belts, but I certainly won't do it by using impossible, illogical arguments.
 
Perhaphs I should have explicityly stated that I was not trying to draw any parallels with the United States, and was only offering this as a general interest type thing. I make a point of never commenting on America's stance on guns, as I don't live there, and I realise that there are vast cultural, and more importaintly historical differences between our two countries.

Some interesting comments came up though, that I would like to reply to....and someone was kind enough to point out my spelling mistakes, thanks for that.
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model 649:
>O.K. so in Australia, one cannot defend himself with firearms
That's partially right. our licening scheme works on a "genuine reason" system. i.e. you need a genuine reason to own a firearm. Self defence is not one. Make of it what you will, but self defence is not really a big issue here. This does not mean however that the law doesn't provide leway for someone defending themselves in an attack.
>Then the leap in "logic" holds that gun owners are responsible for all this?
This is they way it is portrayed in the media.
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El Tejon:
>the sad fact is that in Australia firearms are golf clubs,
>i.e. sport, not constituionally protected rights
That's right.....historical difference. There is not much stopping them from snatching up all of our guns in an instance, and that bothers me. And with the self serving government we have right now, if they thought it would buy them a few more votes, they would.
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Rockrivrl:
You had one of the best replys.
>I'm surprised that this wasn't met with more civil unrest
>from your gun owner population. Seems they went
>"Quietly into the night"
Yeah, I guess they did.
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madkiwi:
Quote:
I am not interested in arogrant, brazen opinions.
>Well then, can you retract your post?
You kiwis crack me up. :)
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Boats:
>Live with it.
Yeah, mabey he is right, mabey I should.
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GoRon:
>The above statement puts you to the left of most
>members here and you would be labeled a gun grabber...
Yes, but I wasn't commenting on the US.
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hillbilly:
This guy had THE BEST post. Spot on. And just for the record, it really gets me that we didn't become a republic.
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Mulliga:
>What if the government decides your "sport" isn't a sport any more?
Valid point, and one that worries me constaintly.
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Be honest with yourself, an M4 with a 30-round magazine is, in fact, capable of more damage more rapidly than any M4gery with a 10-round AWB mag could ever hope to be, and both are vastly more capable of laying down a quantity of fire than poopaw's boltie.

If you mean "damage" as in amount of lead flying downrange, I agree, but if you mean "damage" as in increased ability to kill people, I disagree.

I'll argue 'till I'm blue in the face for the right of private citizens to own new-manufactured Class III NFA weapons

Not much of a "right" if you have to pay $200 and get government approval.
 
Well, here's ONE Aussie shooter who agrees with absolutely stuff all you had to say:

Before I make my posting, I will just say that I am NOT OPPOSED to gun control IN AUSTRALIA, and agreed fully with all the laws introduced in 1996 (although many were already in place).

Then you should be a happy little Vegemite in your controlled, governed, regulated, ruled little existence. It was gun owners like you that Howard relied on in 1996. Good to see you didn't let him down.

I know some of you will be reeling back in horror, but here, I am fine with gun control, and very tough laws/requirements/regulations/licencing/etc, so long at it is FAIR TO THE LEGITATE SPORTING SHOOTER.

Did it ever possibly seep into your head that "laws/requirements/regulations" ONLY affect the "legitimate sporting shooter"? Hello? Who else is going to worry about the frigging rules? Fair? Oh yeah, they're really "fair" -- not.

And trying strip away all handguns is not being fair, neither is banning all handguns above 0.38cal (that one passed in Nov).

Gee, why the change in heart? Ummm ... let me guess -- you're a pistol shooter, right?

I can elaborate on that, should any of you want to question my thinking, in fact I am all for open friedly, and intelligent discussion. I am not interested in arogrant, brazen opinions.

Don't you just possibly think that what your post is a teensy-weensy bit of an "arogrant [sic], brazen" opinion?

Quite frankly, with this attitude, Howard and Co. didn't need the support of the media and the anti-gunners. If that is offensive to you, I'm sorry -- but I've spent years of my life working against the tyranny of our gun laws, and your attitude is just a slap in the face.

I am not trying to start a flame war, here, but merely pointing out documented facts and truths.

Australia is still pretty much a British possession.

Bull????! Australia is and has been for 20 years now a fully independent country. Suggest you do a search for the Australia Act 1986, which is:

AUSTRALIA ACT 1986

An Act to bring constitutional arrangements affecting the Commonwealth and the States into conformity with the status of the Commonwealth of Australia as a sovereign, independent and federal nation.

British royalty still make "crown visits" there and the total population of Australia voted down a measure to become its very own republic and instead chose to remain a commonwealth of the British crown.

British royalty may make visits, but they are NOT "Crown" visits. Yes, we voted against a republic because we were ONLY ALLOWED TO VOTE FOR ONE MODEL -- that being where the government selected and appointed the President. We, the people, were to be given no say whatsoever in the selection of the President. No wonder we rejected it.

I repeat, we are NOT part of the British "crown".

An elected Australian prime minister was removed from office by the British crown in the 1970s

The PM was "sacked" by the Governor-General because he was unable to get any legislation through a locked parliament -- not even the budgetary bills needed to run the country. A new election was called -- and the "elected Australian prime minister" lost.

In Australia, firearms ownership is not a right codified into a constitution.

Very true -- but the reason is that the framers of our constitution could not foresee a situation where anyone could possibly think that ownership of a firearm wasn't an inherent right.

In the US, firearms ownership is a right codified into a constitution.

The reason it is a right in the US is because instead of voting down a referendum on our independence, we wrested our independence away from Britain with arms.

One last time -- we are a free, sovereign and independent nation.

I'm surprised that this wasn't met with more civil unrest from your gun owner population. Seems they went "Quietly into the night" and gave up thier rights without to much of a fight. I can't say as I don't live there and then again, like the article indicated, underestimate the opposition or ignore them if you can. Seems like it worked. Guess there weren't to may "From my cold dead hand" types living in your country.

Let's see -- Australia saw the largest protest marches it had seen in its history -- even larger than those protesting the Vietnam War. Literally hundreds of thousands marched, blocking cities and disrupting traffic.

The media deliberately ignored them. They even downplayed the numbers by a factor of a thousand or more. They refused to report to the general public the full extent of the protests.

The legislation was rammed through parliament in 10 days. Australia is as large as continental USA. It was a miracle that as much protest was raised in 10 days as was.

The legislation was pre-written. It just had to be introduced.

Both the governement and the opposition voted for the legislation. It's passage was assured before it was even tabled.

The Federal government has no authority over firearms, according to our constitution. The Prime Minister simply told State Premiers that if they did not accept and ratify the new legislation, he (the PM) would halt all Federal funding to the states, crippling them. Yes, this is called blackmail when someone else does it.

Every state fell into line.

There is no appeal against the legislation under our laws and constitution -- parliament is supreme

Bingo! In just over a week, it's done. Like it or lump it, it's the law and if you disobey, you are a criminal. In some states, such as mine (Western Australia), which had had full licensing and registration since the 1930s, the police knew what everyone had. You couldn't "lose" a firearm (that's a crime, by the way) or just forget to hand it in, because they already knew you had it. In certain other states, where prior licensing had been simpler or even nonexistent, it is believed that fewer than 25% of the newly banned firearms were handed in.

Incidentally, we certainly can defend ourselves with a firearm, if the situation warrants it.

However, self-defence is excluded by law as being a "reason" to own a firearm. And under the new laws you have to show both "genuine reason" and "need" to own a firearm -- each and every time you want to buy one. Genuine reasons are stated in the regulations (hunting and competition), but the local sergeant can decide if you "need" a particular firearm or not. (For example, if you apply for a licence for a .22 HMR, and you already own as .22 LR, the sergeant may well deny your application since you don't "need" another rimfire.)

The USA is different. And I wish we were more like you. But I also think it's inevitable that you will, sadly, find your freedoms more and more restricted in the future. I just can't see a scenario where it won't happen.

I hope I'm wrong.
 
The Australian gun laws are unjust. They will probably never be fixed, as most of the country (at least where I am) seems totally brainwashed against guns. It's so bad with some people that they believe that there should actually be "GUILTY until proven INNOCENT" sentencing, rather than the civilised way of doing things. Few people can comprehend people's desire for a firearm for self defence, falsely believing that our rising violent crime rate just isn't true. In today's policies and media, people aside from the perpetrators are being blamed, for example: "It's the alcohol", "it's the system". God forbid someone should be made responsible for their own actions :fire:

It'd be great if someone could fix these laws, they've been in for 9 years and have gotten worse ever since. I think the main problem is that no one is familiarised with weapons anymore, since there is no longer national service.

just my two cents
 
Bruce in West Oz, I took your adivce and researched the "Australia Act of 1986."

Australian sovereignty is not exactly cut and dried nor is it clear cut.

Here's a link I found.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Australia-Act-1986

To be fair to Bruce, here's one excerpt from early on the page that supports his contentions.

"The act eliminated the remaining, mainly theoretical, ties between the legislature and judiciary of Australia and the United Kingdom. In particular, the act resolved the anomalous power of the United Kingdom's parliament to legislate over the individual Australian states, a power that it had exercised since colonial times and which had not been affected by the passing of the 1931 Statute of Westminster."

But to be equally fair, here's a line from farther down the page that shows that not all the loose ends were wrapped up by the "Australia Act of 1986:

"...the Australia Act, although pivotal in furthering the sovereignty of Australia, could not alter the Australian Constitution (a national referendum is required to do so.) "


And in case you are curious, here is that Constituion, with the Preamble provided:

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/preamble.htm

<< Return to contents page

Commonwealth Of Australia Constitution Act

(Preamble)

An Act to constitute the Commonwealth of Australia. [9th July 1900]

(The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster)

Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and under the Constitution hereby established:

And whereas it is expedient to provide for the admission into the Commonwealth of other Australasian Colonies and possessions of the Queen:

Be it therefore enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:--


And oh yeah, soveriegn, independent Australia still has British royalty on its currency.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/currency.html

"The A$5 note features Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and Parliament House* in Canberra, the national capital. (*pictured right)"


So, Bruce is exactly right.

Australia is it's own sovereign, independent nation that's still bound by a constitution proclaiming it be a British commonwealth and that still features Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II on its national currency.

And it got its independence through legislation "assented to" by a Governor General, who is the representative of the British Crown.

And even though Australia is its very own, independent nation, the Governor General is still an official (albeit ceremonial) position in Australia, and that office has as its flag, a blue field, with "Commonwealth of Australia" on it underneath a large scarlet crown. Atop the large crown is a golden royal lion that wears on its head a smaller scarlet crown.

For a picture of the flag, go here...

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Governor_General-of-Australia


Got it. Australia is sovereign and independent..........sort of......... if you'll just ignore all those messy details like the Australian constitution, Australian currency, and nit-picky things like the continued existence of the office of Governor General, official representative of the British Crown.

hillbilly
 
"...the Australia Act, although pivotal in furthering the sovereignty of Australia, could not alter the Australian Constitution (a national referendum is required to do so.) "

Hillbilly, you are missing the point here. A national referendum is needed to do so. That means, where the Australian Constitution is concerned, a majority of voters in a majority of states must approve a change whereas the US Constitution, if memory serves, requires agreement by two thirds of state legislatures to alter it so in the US there is no direct vote by the people. At least in that respect it would appear that the Australian Constitution is superior to yours.

Australian sovereignty is not exactly cut and dried nor is it clear cut.

And you reckon that means the British are going to send out a fleet of gunboats to bring the colonists to heel? Get real!

As for the flag, I suppose you're referring to the union jack in the corner. I don't like that much but point out that the Hawaii state flag also includes it. Does that make Hawaii a British colony?

The Governor General is appointed by the prime minister who, however much I detest him, is elected by the Ausytralian people. But then the US president is elected by an electoral college not directly by the American people and I have read of the office being described as an elected monarchy. The president does appear to have at least some powers very similar to those of George III.

And oh yeah, soveriegn, independent Australia still has British royalty on its currency.

I would rather not have that either, but what does having British royalty on one note prove - certainly not that Australians are British subjects, any more than its flag proves that Hawaii is a British possession.

The legislation is not national, it varies from state to state. Some states have legislation that is less restrictive than others. In my home state you have to go through the BS but do not need to justify ownership. Unlike Complicated, I vehemently oppose the present system and every shooter I know feels the same. I guess I move in different circles to Complicated. I suggest he strike the scales from his eyes and take a good hard look at a system that penalises only the law-abiding.

I am not interested in arogrant (sic), brazen opinions.
What, only your own opinions? :banghead:

As for a republic, I support one but I will not vote for one that does not have a directly elected president. That is why the vote was lost. But there will be another vote and Australia will become a republic. It's just a matter of time.
 
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