Gun doesn't fire in a DA- Tap Rack Bang or pull trigger again?

[marklbucla]

Like the title says-

Suppose you were in a Self Defense Scenario and the gun goes click. Do you do a tap rack bang immediately or pull the trigger again if it's a DA? Let's say you know a live round is in the chamber but it didn't fire.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Always tap, rap bang.

Use a T-R-B as the initial response for any failure to fire. In a self-defense situation, you will not have time to assess what the malfunction type is, whether it be a failure to fire or failure to feed. T-R-B fixes both.

By the time you've pulled the trigger two or three times on a dud primer, you've spent the same amount of time it would take to clear the malfunction properly with a (well practiced) T-R-B anyway.

That's my take, anyway.

 

[sacp81170a]

How do you know for sure there's a live round in the chamber? T-R-B and you're 100% sure in the same time it would take to look and make sure a round is chambered. Plus, if you train the same reaction all the time, it should be automatic, no thinking required. More importantly, have you been training to move off the line of attack/to cover *while* you are executing T-R-B?

 

[1911 guy]

Agreed. Always TRB.

Pulling the trigger again does nothing but put the FP into the same 1) empty chamber or 2) bad round. Either case is going to cost you seconds you don't have.

 

[crofrog]

There are two sides to this argument.

1 side is that something like 70-80% of failure to fires fire on the second strike, and pulling the trigger again is less complex and faster than a TRB.

The otherside is that it only works on guns that allow for a second strike. If it doesn't work you've added a step to the TRB slowing it down.

 

[swampgator]

TRB.

No sense pulling the trigger a second time. Clear the dud and move on.

 

[benEzra]

The only round my 3913 has ever failed to fire was a round of Winchester white box with a dud primer. I was at the range, so I pulled the trigger on it two or three times. No result, so I waited long enough to rule out a hangfire, ejected the round, and saw that the primer was dented all the way down to the bottom of the primer cup, and it still didn't go off.

Unless you have a gun that sometimes does light strikes (and if you do, you need to get it fixed ASAP), the problem is almost always going to be a dud primer, and in that case a second strike is almost always a waste of time.

 

[Ryder]

I have not had any success getting a dud to fire with more hammer drops at the range. I doubt it would it be any different in a self-defense scenario. Wasting time sounds like a really bad idea. Might well be an empty chamber causing the problem.

It is very important to know in advance that a dud is the cause. If some safety mechanism has prevented the hammer from contacting the primer you're not going to see different results on a new round. Familiarity through practice can let you react so you don't even remember it happening afterwards but I once popped out two perfectly good cartridges onto the ground when a big buck tried to run me over. It's hard to stop and think "what's the problem" when that click excites you and you haven't taken the time to become one with that firearm.

 

[geekWithA.45]

The few FTFs I've had were resolved with another trigger pull.

Click, click, TRB.

 

[SRYnidan]

I see the big issue as training and what YOU see as the goal. If you are making an informed decision than that is good for you whether or not some of the rest of us disagree is not really important.
Now lets look at cases. I own all of the following.

TRB=Tap Rack Bang

1. KelTec P11 TRB works second pull is possible
2. CZ75 pre B TRB works second pull is possible.
3. BHP TRB works
4. Glock 19/23 TRB works
5. HK P7M8 TRB works second pull sort of possible
6. LWS32 TRB works second pull works
7. S&W 57/58 second pull gets new round

I actually have more guns than this but the trend is pretty clear. Unless I carry a revolver (where TRB is obviously not an option) TRB works for all types, makes, and models. I also don’t have to remember what weapon I am shooting, so my training is universally applicable.

I f you will only use one type of weapon ever that train for that piece of gear, if you don’t know train to support a universal practice as much as possible.

 

[BullfrogKen]

The T-R-B is a non-diagnostic method for getting any semi-auto back into action. I advocate that method . . . so does nearly every trainer I know. Its nearly universal.

 

[Headless]

Tap? Wouldn't it just be rack + bang? do you tap the gun on the barrel several times or something?

 

[geekWithA.45]

Headless:

The "tap" part of the drill is to slap the heel of your palm firmly into the butt of the magazine to ensure that it is seated properly. I don't remember the exact number, but some huge proportion of FTF is improperly seated mags.

 

[Headless]

Thanks geek...I smack the crap out of the mag when i load it, but i suppose with a thumb release the mag on a semi could get partially released while drawing or in the holster. I never really though about that as my semi doesn't get carried on my person very often. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Snarlingiron]

Additionally, there is always the possibility that some foreign matter has entered the magazine. In a combative pistol course that I took, we were dropping mags into deep thick gooey mud left from the previous day's rain, and if not in the mud, it was on loose gravel. It would be easy for a round to hang up in a dirty magazine. A sharp tap on the magazine bottom can also assist rounds in elevating up to the feed ramp should they be hung in the mag. Point being the problem may be something other than an improperly seated magazine, but many things can be corrected by a sharp rap of the hand. It assures that the mag is seated, and it also bounces the rounds so that if they should be askew, they are likely to rebound into the correct position.

 

[swampgator]

Anyone who was in the Army with an M-16 should know the SPORTS method.

Slap upwards on the magazine
Pull charging handle
Observe chamber
Release charging handle
Tap forward assist
Squeeze trigger

So you can see that tapping the mag is always a good first step. Although I never saw anyone actually "observe." More like slap, cycle, tap assist, recycle, re-tap.

 

[gezzer]

Carrying a S&W model 19 TRB don't cut it Pull the trigger again, and again and again...................................

Specify what model firearm to ask this question. Basic semi auto is TRB regardless of model as it will work with all.

 

[the naked prophet]

Did some malfunction drills on my Glock 19 the other day. Loaded a few empties in the mag, and proceeded to do mozambique drills. A TRB did NOT clear the malfunction. I had to clear what was essentially a double feed. You need to train for a mag swap/rack in addition to the TRB.

 

[Leanwolf]

THE NAKED PROPHET - "...A TRB did NOT clear the malfunction. I had to clear what was essentially a double feed. You need to train for a mag swap/rack in addition to the TRB."


You're correct!!

Seems as if almost everyone here is assuming that all failures-to-fire are the result of dud primer.

A double-feed will not be cleared by "tapping and racking."

Often, a "stovepipe" will merely fall back into the magazine/open slide area with a tap and rack.

If you have a faulty magazine, the rounds are not going to feed properly with a slam on the base of the magazine.

In fact, that slamming the base of the magazine, just like we see all the actor cops and gangstas do in the flicks and teeveee, is a very good way to pop live rounds from the top of the magazine into inverted angles or even reversed. Talk about a serious jam...!

Everyone who carries a semi-auto pistol should learn how to make a very rapid magazine change when a malfunction occurs.

1. Drop the magazine from the pistol.
2. Quickly rack the slide two or three times.
3. Grab a fresh magazine and insert it in the pistol.
4. Rack the slide.
5. Aim. Fire.

Practice and practice this. Never assume the only malfunction you might have is dead primer. That could get you deader than a dead primer.

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[lawson]

always tap rack bang. there's no point in practicing anything else when one simple maneuver will clear most any malfunctions. mixing some snap caps in your magazines makes things interesting.

 

[kengrubb]

PTA or TRB

With TRB, if one carries a second strike capable firearm, and one experiences a bad round, TRB could cost a few fractions of a second--assuming it truly is a bad round and not a stove pipe, a double feed, fails to go completely into battery, magazine spring fails to push the next round up, etc. which are not cured by PTA.

With PTA, if one is carrying something other than a second strike capable firearm, or if one experiences a stove pipe, a double feed, fails to go completely into battery, magazine spring fails to push the next round up, etc. then one's training will lead to more click, click, click, click, click. One could well lose a whole lot more than just a few fractions of a second. One could well lose one's life. If you say, "But I always carry a second strike capable firearm", then I would say, "Suppose you have to pick up another firearm, yours or someone else's, and protect yourself?"

I say TRB, always.

 

[OpFlash]

Last IDPA I shot on the last stage I had a malfunction on the second round after a reload. I had not inserted the mag fully and although it was enough to strip the first round off, after cycling the second round jammed. TRB did not fix the problem. I had to pull the slide back and lock it using the slide release before the mag would release and fall free (along with the round causing the jam) and then reinsert the same mag (it was my last full mag), activate the slide release (or rack again, can't remember which I did) and finally resume firing.

Sometimes nasty jams happen. In this situation neither a TRB or even a normally executed mag swap/reload would have worked.

 

[strambo]

Always choose TRB. I see the benefit in double strike capability as being if under stress you pull the trigger again unconsciously it may fire. If you realize there is a problem, choose TRB. TRB will work (or not work ) the same on any auto.

 

[Headless]

My S&W 659 is pretty much the most reliable gun i've seen personally; over 15k rounds through it without a single fte, ftf, misfeed, etc...every time it fed the next round and every time it went bang first try..i fired winchester white box, i fired federal red box, i fired a bunch of hydrashok's, a ton of DPX +P, etc. etc...no problems! I was starting to think the 659 was immune to jamming
until last weekend. I got some UMC green box 9mm's that were the dirtiest ammo i've ever shot, right behind the aguilla super high velocity .22's that made my poor rifle choke in under 300 rounds...... in 200 9mm rounds fired I had TWO failure to ejects, the slide felt sticky to move after 50-70 rounds fired.

The rounds appeared to just be getting stuck in the chamber, half extracted...so the next round would double feed into the bottom of the one stuck in the chamber. The only way i could clear that was with a f***ing pocket knife while holding the chamber open half way, after locking it open so i could drop the mag successfully; locking the chamber open using the slide release/retention resulted in the entire casing being hidden by the front edge of the slide to where i couldn't get the knife under the rim of the casing.

Just a point. No matter what you train to do, your firearm may jam horrifically enough that it's essentially useless in a self defense, short time period situation. I'm starting to think the best training would be to carry a BUG , and train yourself to GO FOR THE BUG when your semiauto jams. At least then you don't have to look down, focus on the gun, try and figure out what's wrong...while being shot at, stabbed at, rushed at, chased, etc.

 

[stevelyn]

Always TRB. It works for all platforms. Second strike does not.

Do you know which you'll be carrying when you come under stress and have to function on auto-pilot?