Gun Free School Zones?

[zombienerd]

From Wikipedia:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
Exception: This does not include possession of a firearm on private property that is not part of school grounds or possession of a loaded firearm by an individual who is licensed to do so by the State. (i.e. a concealed carry, weapon, or firearm permit).

This means that with a CCW permit, that you are allowed to pass through school zones with your weapon, correct?

Just wanted to double check... I pass through several school zones in my regular travels.

I don't remember anything in NH law stating anything on a state level about it, either.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Depends on what you mean by "pass through", and what the state uses for a determining the border or distances of "school zones". Not all states have an exemption for CCW permits either, only authorizing law enforcement and security officers, or just law enforcement. So "pass through" when the state exempts you is probably OK. Driving down a road to pass a school where the stated does not allow you a CCW permit exemption..., still might be OK. Walking across the school's field to get to the bus stop..., no. What about armored car drivers going to and from a bank in the armored car? Folks going to and from the gunsmith or gunshop? Some jurisdictions require the school to be open and in session or other activities going on to apply the restriction (so middle of the night no worries, 12 noon, lots of worries) Some school zones stop at the curb in some states. Some are a radius of a hundred or several hundred yards from the school's main office. Sounds as though more research is needed.

LD

 

[zombienerd]

NH has no regulations against where you can carry except Courtrooms.

I'm more worried about the Federal law. So, judging by everything I've read, I could walk up to the front doors if I wanted to, concealed carrying, and I would not be breaking any laws.

 

[The Sarge]

We have quite a bit of debate concerning this here in Texas and how this Fed Law relates to the Texas Rights to Carry Laws "From the Texas DPS FAQ Page: Effective September 1, 2007 a person who can legally possess a firearm may possess or carry
a handgun in motor vehicle (including a recreational vehicle with living quarters) that is owned
by or under the lawful control of the person. However, the firearm must be concealed, the person
may not be engaged in criminal activity....."
Most Sherrffs Departments have stood on the 10th Amendment declaring State Law trumps Feds...but Liberal Counties such as Houston/Austin Departments have been known to "tack on" federal Charges to other charges when a gun is in the car and the car is within 1000'; of a school......so quite a bit of debate going on down here concerning this.....
Now of course if a person has a Texas CHL there is no issue....but I am speaking of a non licensed person in Texas with a gun in the car.....it really boils down to which county you are in....now how is that for screwed up?

 

[bhk]

FEDERAL law says you are exempt from the FEDERAL 1000 foot zone (in your state) if you have a permit to carry from your state. You are not exempt in another state if you visit there.

Some states have their own gun-free zone laws. Read these. I don't think there have been any prosecutions under the federal law in years and years. The federal prosecutors have bigger fish to fry. This law COULD be a problem if the government does as WE suggest: enforce all present laws to the maximum rather than pass any new ones. We need to be careful what we wish for! This law really does need to be thrown out.

 

[wishin]

In Georgia it's is a felony for a person to carry ANY type of weapon

onto or within 1,000 feet of real property owned or leased by any public or private elementary school, secondary school, or school board and used for elementary or secondary education and in, on, or within 1,000 feet of the campus of any public or private technical school, vocational school, college, university, or institution of post secondary education, without a GFL.

A person with a GFL can carry or pick up a student at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school.

 

[NavyLCDR]

FEDERAL law says you are exempt from the FEDERAL 1000 foot zone (in your state) if you have a permit to carry from your state. You are not exempt in another state if you visit there.

NH has no regulations against where you can carry except Courtrooms.

The quotes above are the answers that pertain to your question.

The complete Federal statute is in 18 USC 922(q):
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

 

[jimmyraythomason]

wishin,what do the letters GFL stand for? Georgia Firearms License?

 

[wishin]

Jimmyraythomason

Yes. Sorry about that!

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Thanks wishin,it kinda came to me after I had posted the question. There are SO MANY different ways to say licensed gun owner!

 

[Dokkalfar]

DO NOT take legal advice from wikipedia. It's probably worse than the advice you'll get here esp when it comes to firearms. I'd check your state/federal laws first.

I'd say NavyLT's post sums it up very succinctly for you

 

[Top_Gunn]

A few points. First, under the federal law, having a permit from the state in which the school is located works only if the state does a background check before issuing the permit. (Maybe all of them do; I don't know.) If you live in a state Like Vermont, which lets you carry without a permit, you can't do it. Similarly, you can't use a permit from a state other than the one in which the school is located. So, for instance, I can't carry a pistol near a school in Michigan with my Indiana permit, even though Michigan law lets me use that permit to carry in Michigan.

Second, you need a permit to carry the gun in question. If it's a rifle or shotgun, your permit is irrelevant because no state requires permits for these. You have to carry them, unloaded, in a locked case.

Third, the definition of "school" is up to the states. In Indiana, a church that has Sunday school classes is a "school." So is a day-care center.

All this is a matter of Federal law. You have to obey state law, too. So, in Indiana, I wouldn't violate federal law it I carried a pistol on school property, because I have an Indiana permit. But I would violate Indiana law, which with a couple of minor exceptions doesn't allow this.

Finally, what was said above about getting legal advice from Wikipedia is dead on. Furthermore, don't count on what seems sensible being right. Some of these laws are pretty nutty. They'll still punish you for breaking them.

 

[swinokur]

Similarly, you can't use a permit from a state other than the one in which the school is located. So, for instance, I can't carry a pistol near a school in Michigan with my Indiana permit, even though Michigan law lets me use that permit to carry in Michigan.

Topp Gunn I keep seeing this but that's not how I read the statute. can you elaborate?

Thanks

 

[Quiet]

Varies from state to state. Check your state laws.

Here's what the Feds say about it.

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(25) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary

18 USC 922
(q)
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3)
(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.

 

[Quiet]

Similarly, you can't use a permit from a state other than the one in which the school is located. So, for instance, I can't carry a pistol near a school in Michigan with my Indiana permit, even though Michigan law lets me use that permit to carry in Michigan.

Topp Gunn I keep seeing this but that's not how I read the statute. can you elaborate?

Thanks

See bold.

18 USC 922
(q)(2)(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

 

[swinokur]

That's my point. the statute reads as you quoted:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

I have a CCW from a state that the state I am in recognizes, and a background check was conducted, then according to the law I am licensed to carry in that state and in a school zone in that state. That's how I read this. Thoughts?

 

[Quiet]

Federally...
State A recognizes State B's permit.
State B's permit is not valid in a school zone in State A due to 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(ii).
State A did not license the person with a permit from State B, State B licensed that person.


18 USC 922
(q)(2)(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

 

[swinokur]

Well I suppose it's a matter of interpretation of the word LICENSED. If State B recognizes my license from state A, then am I not licensed in state B?

As usual, clear as mud. :banghead:

 

[NavyLCDR]

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State,

The key word in the above section is not "licensed". The key word is "by". If you have a license from, say, Ohio, you were licensed to carry a concealed firearm BY the state of Ohio. If you travel to, say, Indiana, and Indiana recognizes your Ohio permit, you still were not licensed BY Indiana - you were licensed BY Ohio.

If you have an Ohio driver's license, which state licensed you to drive? Ohio did. Just because you are driving in Alaska does not mean that Alaska licensed you to drive - Ohio licensed you to drive. All Alaska is doing is extending you the privilege of driving in Alaska because Ohio has licensed you to drive. It's the same way with the concealed carry permit, the host state is merely extending a privilege to you based upon a license/permit that another state has issued to you.

 

[swinokur]

The key word in the above section is not "licensed". The key word is "by". If you have a license from, say, Ohio, you were licensed to carry a concealed firearm BY the state of Ohio. If you travel to, say, Indiana, and Indiana recognizes your Ohio permit, you still were not licensed BY Indiana - you were licensed BY Ohio.

If you have an Ohio driver's license, which state licensed you to drive? Ohio did. Just because you are driving in Alaska does not mean that Alaska licensed you to drive - Ohio licensed you to drive. All Alaska is doing is extending you the privilege of driving in Alaska because Ohio has licensed you to drive. It's the same way with the concealed carry permit, the host state is merely extending a privilege to you based upon a license/permit that another state has issued to you.

I guess that's my area of confusion. if a neighboring state extends my privilege to carry based on reciprocity, then aren't I licensed BY the other state to carry? if I wasn't "licensed", I could not carry on my home permit at all in that state. I think we may be reading more into this than was intended. Of course I don't want to be the test case. I have heard that violations of the GFSZ statute are not normally prosecuted unless a bunch of other charges are being considered, but I have no cite for this.

As far as a drivers license, if say I am licensed by New York to drive a car, and I go to Connecticut, I am still licensed to drive by Connecticut on my NY permit.

My head hurts.

 

[NavyLCDR]

We will just have to disagree on our interpretations of the law. Each person can decide for themselves their own courses of actions based upon how they interpret the law.

 

[wishin]

I think NavyLT's interpretation is right. You must be licensed by the state in which you'll be carrying in a school zone, not by reciprocity. I really don't see any ambiguity in the language.

 

[swinokur]

Would you agree that by carrying in another state through reciprocity you are licensed to carry? Because if not and you are not licensed, you're committing a felony. I think my point is that by the reciprocal state granting you permission, you are defacto licensed BY that state.

As NavyLt said, i think we will have to disagree on the intent of this poorly worded statute. But the discussion of these issues is always very helpful as it gives several interpretations that others see when I don't. That can only be helpful

 

[Top_Gunn]

Would you agree that by carrying in another state through reciprocity you are licensed to carry? Because if not and you are not licensed, you're committing a felony. I think my point is that by the reciprocal state granting you permission, you are defacto licensed BY that state.

Even if you could convince a court to buy this reading, it wouldn't be enough. The statute also requires that the law enforcement authorities of the state in which the school is located have verified that you are entitled to receive the license. When I carry in Michigan with my Indiana permit, there is no serious argument that the law enforcement authorities of Michigan, who are completely unaware of my existence, have verified that I was entitled to my license. A "de facto" licensing wouldn't be enough.

 

[swinokur]

If the state you are in has reciprocity with your home state and your state also does a background check for issue then requirements for the license are substantially equal to theirs. I am not sure and I can't provide a cite, but is there any state that requires a background check that recognizes another state's permit that does not? What knowledge does the other state need if you produce a license that they recognize by virtue of an agreement or actual reciprocity? The other state has done due diligence in the recognition of your home permit.You are licensed by that state by virtue of recognition of your permit. Of course this is my read an IANAL.