Gun Instructors - what do you expect?

[Old Dog]

Whether or not they should shoot in front of the class depends entirely upon what the purpose of the class is.

I expect professionalism, courtesy, respect and competence from any instructor, why would gun instructors be different?

This is pretty much all there is.

I shoot in front of academy classes, but generally minimally and only to demo some basic stuff (drawing, presentation, shooting from unusual positions or compressed ready/recovery positions, double-taps, i.e., difference between hammer pairs vs. controlled pairs, one-handed and point shooting). It's only about demonstrating proper form/technique, not showing off what remain of my shooting skills. I do not shoot in front of qual courses for line officers.

I have never taught civilian classes, but have attended a few. Generally speaking, I've usually been disappointed. A lot of ego rampant, in my view.

We do have two stellar facilities in the Northwest, FAS and Thunder Ranch with awesome staff and guest instructors, can't speak highly enough of either. A little coarse language? The instructors will ask if it bothers anyone, and even if a little bomb slips out, they're always professional in all other regards.

Do I require someone who's been there, done that? No. The two veterans of law enforcement gunfights I've known personally would both make crappy instructors. One is a crusty veteran former SRT leader who has no interest in teaching, the other a deputy years ago who couldn't really articulate what she did - she mainly just reacted in accordance with her training (although her performance was exemplary). One of best firearms instructors I've ever met is an Air Force vet who never touched a firearm in the service and spent most of his LE career either tussling with inmates in the jail or riding a desk.

A shout-out to our mods here who've provided some excellent input throughout this thread.

 

[9mmepiphany]

double-taps, i.e., difference between hammer pairs vs. controlled pairs

Since you've brought it up, I'd be interested in how you differentiate them.

I learned the original "double tap" the way Cooper described them in his early writing: 1 sight picture and 2 shots as the gun was rising in muzzle flip, but that was in the days when the Weaver shooting style still held sway.

I object to the use of the same terms where folks have changed their original meaning as techniques evolved

 

[Infidel4life11]

If you're working with the same guy every week, you should reach parity of skill at some point - or close to it, given physical differences.

An instructor can "teach up to a certain point" - regardless of whether it's firearms, or any other martial art. It's why there's dan rankings in karate. A first degree black belt can teach novices. He can spot a flaw with a beginner a mile away, and correct it. But when he looks at his seniors he can't find many, or even any flaws in their technique. The students would find it hard to see any flaw in the first degree's technique, but a third degree could pick him apart for a week straight, with corrections.

Shooting is no different. Time and practice opens your eyes to seeing things. As you get better, you can learn to spot those really-hard-to-spot things very easily and make corrections. A new instructor can see if someone's flinching, or using too much or too little trigger, easy enough. A more seasoned instructor will see white knuckles and know that the student isn't applying grip force properly. An even more seasoned instructor will see a flyer now and then and know that the student's not relaxing their strong side thumb, even though it's not visible while watching them.

I've trained one novice rifle marksman up to shooting solid high master scores this year in long range shooting. I didn't do it for him. All I did was lay the foundation and apply proper motivation. The kid can very nearly outshoot me at this point, on a calm day we're consistently a couple points off from each other. When the wind picks up I pull ahead - experience reading wind is hard to teach. You have to do, and learn, with practice.

But if you motivate someone (and clearly that instructor motivated you, since you are out all the time with him), you WILL equal or surpass him someday.

And.. That's when you should feel compelled to start paying it forward to the next guy.

Very good point Trent, he's at a very high level I may get there one day within the next 10years lol. With my point if I seek you out for training I shouldn't be better than you. I'm not saying I won't learn anything, I always take away something. What I was getting at is a Master class shooter isn't going to seek training from a C class shooter on competition. So to speak. YOU HAVE to show students what right looks like. They need to see it, you can tell them about it all day long that doesn't mean they are going to get it.

 

[Trent]

Infidel;

Just remember one thing; shooting is a physical thing and all of our bodies deteriorate as we age. An old instructor with shaking hands that's gone through quadruple bypass and is on various medicines, might not be able to hit squat, but he still may be a very good instructor that can teach you a lot.

My handgun shooting went to crap after my motorcycle accident. It's come back slowly but not as fast as I'd like it to. You could probably whoop me on handguns. Doesn't mean I don't have something to teach. (And vice versa!)

Why? Because the instructor is looking AT you, and can see things you can't see out of your own eyes!

This is one reason why the basic NRA programs emphasize coach/pupil drills where students are paired up, one to coach, one to shoot. People learn by watching others, and when you get to "play" coach, you're going to focus on observing others... which helps you learn, in turn.

 

[Potatohead]

...

 

[Ankeny]

I know you guys are primarily addressing basics, but I have coached USPSA shooters on specific elements of the game when I didn't even have a firearm at the range. Likewise, I had a national champion shooter help me refine several aspects of my shooting and he never fired a shot.

There are times when taking the gun clear out of the picture is more helpful than incorporating the gun. For example, Ron Avery teaches stance with a tennis ball and he doesn't even fire a shot until he demonstrates recoil management. He also demonstrates breaking the shot at the end of extension with his index finger and the analogy of a door bell. Sometimes the gun just gets in the way.

FWIW, I am pretty sure I could get a new shooter going down the right road without my ever firing a shot. Of course I am talking one on one vs. whole group instruction.

 

[Old Dog]

9mmepiphany

postedSince you've brought it up, I'd be interested in how you differentiate them.

I learned the original "double tap" the way Cooper described them in his early writing: 1 sight picture and 2 shots as the gun was rising in muzzle flip, but that was in the days when the Weaver shooting style still held sway.

Yes, that is our standard: one sight picture, two shots, center of mass. The controlled pairs, sight picture for each shot, but we typically use this for dot/circle drills leading up to failure to stop drills, shots to the head or pelvic girdle when trying to teach quick, aimed follow-up shots.

I object to the use of the same terms where folks have changed their original meaning as techniques evolved

Not really sure where you're going with this; we start new recruits with the isosceles, but allow the Weaver, I didn't know folks were changing the meaning of the term "double-tap."

Both Trent and Ankeny make very good points.

 

[Trent]

Both Trent and Ankeny make very good points.

Well, you have to keep in mind I'm very new at all of this, and I'm listening in this thread a LOT more than I'm contributing.

I just got certified to teach various firearms courses and CCW courses this year, so I'm still a rookie.

I'm working towards teaching more advanced classes, but for now I'm comfortable teaching basic level ones. I feel it's important that instructors don't overreach too fast. So I'm in no mad rush.

Firearms instruction isn't really regulated. You could say NRA instruction is, but I've found it takes a LOT for them to pull a certification. I attended a basic pistol class this year, where the instructor:

• Completed the classroom of 25 students in 4 hours instead of 8
• Didn't provide NRA materials to the class (the basic pistol kit)
• Swept the class with the muzzle of firearms dozens of times
• Used the word "weapon" so many times I lost count (and even went so far as to say "The NRA says I can't say the word WEAPON in class, but this, is a WEAPON")
• Advertised the course as valid for Illinois Concealed Carry, Utah concealed Carry, and Florida Concealed Carry. But he didn't teach the Utah laws. Or the Florida laws. And Illinois didn't HAVE any law yet (this was Feb 2013).
• Picked the girl with the biggest boobs to do demonstrations with in front of the class, didn't ask her permission before touching her to make corrections, and made lewd jokes that weren't good.
• Went on a 20 minute rant in front of the class about Diane Feinstein and "California Communists".
• Didn't check anyone for ammunition and passed handguns around for show & tell - class was stacked 3 tables deep, two tables per side, so everyone got swept by a muzzle from all sorts of directions; back front and side..
• Used human sillouhette targets for live fire (an NRA no-no)
• Didn't walk students through most of the NRA subject matter in the NRA Basic Pistol lesson plan.
• Didn't do ANY one on one instruction with students at the range. Just sat at the side and watched.
• Drew and unloaded a concealed carry Bersa handgun in class (no ammunition in the classroom is rule #1)

And.. That was my FIRST experience with firearms instruction. (and likewise, many others).

I complained to the local training counselor about it when I went in to get my first instructor certification a couple months later.

But the guy is still teaching. NRA did nothing except tell him he couldn't advertise his NRA Basic Pistol course as a CCW course. That was it.

So.. yeah, this thread hits home. Now that I'm an instructor and I've been trained on how it SHOULD be done, I have very little patience or sympathy for idiots who are doing it wrong.

I've lost two family members to firearms suicide and one family member to a firearms accident. I have ZERO tolerance for incompetence in firearms instruction.

Which is why I'm working to eventually become a training counselor - an instructor instructor - so I can weed some of the imbeciles out before they can ruin things for the general masses.

(Sorry to be so blunt, but .. that's what it is)

 

[9mmepiphany]

I object to the use of the same terms where folks have changed their original meaning as techniques evolved

Not really sure where you're going with this; we start new recruits with the isosceles, but allow the Weaver, I didn't know folks were changing the meaning of the term "double-tap."

Yes, that is our standard: one sight picture, two shots, center of mass.

I think you might have missed part of my description of the original Double Tap.

Allow me to separate them
" 1 sight picture and 2 shots"..." as the gun was rising in muzzle flip"

This is a physically impossible...because the slide needs to cycle between shots. The higher second shot is usually due to not allowing the sights to land before triggering the second shot

 

[the.batman]

I completely agree with an instructor being able to demo the teaching points in front of the class- no exceptions. Students will immediately call you out if you can't do what you're trying to teach them to do.

 

[guitarguy314]

Someone that teaches what I want to learn. Or, more specifically, someone that will admit when he/his class can't help me.

I hate showing up to firearms classes with my revolver, and being looked at like I have a third arm.

 

[Byrd666]

Posting for later reading and learning. Some VERY good points here.

 

[45crittergitter]

If it's not a beginner "how to shoot a gun" or gun safety course, but instead a defensive "how to stay alive" course, I expect a hot range. It's simply illogical to not have students do on range property what you're ostensibly teaching them to do as soon as they leave the range. In other words, load, make ready, holster, after each drill and during classroom work.