Gun Instructors - what do you expect?

[taliv]

If I'm better that the instructor what good is the instructor in teaching me?

ask Payton Manning why he has a QB coach. or ask why the QB coach isn't starting instead. same answer.

the real key is as was recently described in another thread, the difference in training and practice. training requires someone to watch you because you really can't see what you're doing wrong in many cases. it takes an outside perspective, even if that person is not as skilled.

often, different backgrounds help a lot. i remember working on movement when i was shooting 3gun and then taking a carbine class from a well regarded trainer who taught how to turn. i was thinking "you could save a half second by..." when he started explaining (roughly paraphrased) "when there's blood on the floor, keeping your CoG over your feet will prevent you from assing yourself." apparently, blood is slippery. i wouldn't know.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

I have been an instructor for a few years now. I originally became NRA certified so that I was able to "qualify" the other officers in my dept. with pistol, shotgun and patrol rifle. My partner was interested in doing the same thing. We eventually branched out and started teaching civilians the NRA basic pistol course. We don't really make much money doing it, but it is a lot of fun and allows us to get out there and teach people basic gun handling skills as well as responsible firearm ownership.

I believe having a partner while teaching is a HUGE asset for several reasons. It allows us to spend more individual time with students if required and doesn't take away time from students that require less instruction. My partner and I also have different styles of teaching. I am a hunter, target shooter and I was a soldier. He didn't get into shooting until he was in the police academy. I think that these differences allow us to enhance the students experience by providing a more well rounded course.

Professionalism should be a priority in all courses. Providing a safe and respectful environment is a must as well. I never want a student to be intimidated to ask us a question or to ask us to go over a technique again. Like I said earlier, I don't do this for the money, I would help them out after class if they would like.

As far as shooting in front of the class, for me it isn't a must. In most cases I can demonstrate proper technique without firing a shot but if the situation warrants it, no problem.

The OP mentioned an instructor that was reading out of a book. In most cases that would be a deal killer for me. I keep my syllabus near me just in case we get a little off track and I have to take a quick glance over to remember where we left off and I think it's perfectly reasonable to do that. If I had to read out of a book to teach, I don't think you are ready to be in front of a class.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If an instructor is teaching anything about the application of deadly force with a firearm, I would certainly hope that they have a long and well respected career in which the potential application of deadly force was/is an integral aspect of their professional employment. This could be military, career LE in elite units, etc. Someone with real-world credentials who has been properly vetted.

I know a couple of folks have touched on this already, but I'd like to weigh in from a different point of view.

I've had a long career in LE...28 years. I'm not sure if the Command Staff always respected me, but my fellow Training Officers and co-workers did. My legacy are my trainees, who still talk about how I taught being an officer.

I don't think that experience counts for much of anything when teaching shooting...it's just a thing that seems to impress some people. I've known several officers who survived shootings, who can't even explain how they did it, much less what to do.

What it has done is given me insight into what really happens during a critical incident. But that was only because I was there for the de-briefs and was able to note the common factors...because I wasn't one of the involved parties.

 

[jmorris]

Should they shoot in front of the class?

Those that can, do; those who can't, teach.

Seriously, It is pretty rare that even professional shooters shoot at the classes that they teach. They already know they can shoot and you are paying them to nudge you in the right directions. If you want to just watch good shooters shoot YouTube your favorite one.

 

[David E]

Those that can, do; those who can't, teach.

Seriously, It is pretty rare that even professional shooters shoot at the classes that they teach. They already know they can shoot and you are paying them to nudge you in the right directions. If you want to just watch good shooters shoot YouTube your favorite one.

Which, of course, isn't why the instructor should be shooting in front of the class.

One reason I shoot in front of mine is due to student feedback: "I wasn't getting it until you did the live-fire demo, THEN it clicked. ..."

 

[doc2rn]

If my DI and Range Master wheren't yelling or swearing it was about to get really interesting. They didn't have to be able to shoot as well as me to appreiciate and hone my skills.
If you where paying for a class and didnt get what you needed, I would have let the institution who brought that particular individual in be advised.

 

[9mmepiphany]

One reason I shoot in front of mine is due to student feedback: "I wasn't getting it until you did the live-fire demo, THEN it clicked. ..."

That's the only reason I do it.

Some folks just don't understand what bowling or porpoising is until you demonstrate it...they certainly aren't aware of it, or they'd have stopped when you'd asked them to.

I've never been able to get a client correctly do the Push Out and fire the first shot as their hands reached extension, until it was demonstrated...even then it was a struggle

 

[splithoof]

I stand by what I said previously.

 

[Bobson]

Professionalism- I don't want to hear the instructor tell dirty or off color jokes during the class.

To a greater extent, IMHO, the instructor shouldn't swear - or even tolerate it from students in the course. I don't know what it is with people who are into guns that makes so many of them feel obligated to cuss in every other sentence, but it's beyond annoying. And to anyone who tries to say its because many gun aficionados are ex military, or LE, that is complete and total crap. I'm ex-military, and ex-LE. None of my friends or coworkers in the Air Force swore; it simply wasn't tolerated by our supervisors. And the same goes for LE, but to an even greater extent.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I stand by what I said previously.

Of course, you are welcome to make that choice.

However, for people who haven't decided yet, it is always a good idea to not rule out otherwise good instructors based on a personal bias which has limited influence on the quality of the instruction

 

[mljdeckard]

I have learned to be very careful with the respect. I keep it very politically correct and non-partisan. I have been arguing on facebook with an old (very liberal) teacher from high school about guns for many years, and when his wife inherited a Bersa .380, he decided that he needed to learn how to shoot it. A mutual friend took him shooting, but I brought him into my concealed carry class. I realized I had done a pretty good job of keeping my class pretty politically neutral.

I also open with a statement about being open and teachable, and being wary of instructors who speak in absolutes and try to tell you that if you do it any way other than their way, you are doing it wrong.

 

[hso]

I stand by what I said previously.

You're welcome to your opinion, but what's the basis for it? How many courses have you paid for?

I'm a piker by most standards and I've taken 9 or 10. Not all of them were former LE or military and all of them were very good trainers who taught me new skills or improved my skill level. What they all had in common was the ability to communicate and demonstrate the needed skill and to evaluate what we were doing right or wrong and to help correct the errors and integrate the successes into the following phase of the training so it built on itself.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Bobson, the Air Force is a part of the military?

Joking. Little inter-service rivalry.




A instructor who swears can distract from his message by using course language. Its best to keep it clean.


But it doesn't bother me. I served in the Marines, and you better believe we swore excessively. Still better not to do it in front of your class.

 

[mljdeckard]

I am a military linguist. I speak fluent Vulgarian. I know profanity in five different languages. But I decided a long time ago that if someone is the kind of person who doesn't mind the cursing, I will let them indicate it to me FIRST, and if everyone else isn't also participating, then I won't either.

 

[guyfromohio]

I don't want to hear about politics.

 

[splithoof]

I've taken over a dozen at a variety of schools, and while most have very good teachers who can convey skills in a competent manner, I prefer those who have had to actually put those skills to the test. That being said, I have known a few who had the real world experience, but lacked ability to relate those experiences in a way that would benefit the student. Like others have pointed out, and is of my preference, I see those who use repeated harsh profanity as being less professional. JMO.

 

[Curator]

I have been an NRA certified instructor for 50 years and a Training Counselor for 25. In that time I have organized and taught many hundreds of firearms training classes at both the basic and instructor level. A good instructor needs to be thoroughly familiar and competent in the discipline they are teaching. They need to be both positive and encouraging, never critical or demeaning. Knowledge, shooting skill, and experience are requirements, but so too are teaching/speaking/presentation skills. A real desire to help one's students acquire the skills being taught, along with patience and understanding is necessary. I tell my instructor candidates to NEVER shoot with or for their students as this is usually a "no-win" situation. If they shoot really well (as they should) they are seen as a show-off or braggart. If they are having a bad day or lousy ammo, they are seen as incompetent and their students begin to wonder if they can learn anything from them. A good instructor is as much a "learning coach" as anything and need not be a great shot anymore than a great swimming coach needs to be a competitive swimmer. Too many people who claim to be great firearms instructors are big egos who get off on humiliating others, bragging, swaggering, and showing off their skills as a way to make up for their personal pathology. This public perception makes potential students reluctant to take training classes and diminishes the firearms training community as a whole.

 

[David E]

Again, a shooter that "shows off" for the class is shooting for the wrong reason.

If I'm teaching the Art of the Draw, I can smoothly and properly demo a draw in 2 seconds or so, to illustrate what it looks like, including the shot timing. I do NOT need to demo a sub .80, since they'd miss all the subtleties of the draw I'm trying to teach.

 

[BullfrogKen]

David, now that's a different issue.

Demonstrating the steps of a four count draw, slowly, one step at a time, is not really shooting.

I recall the best instruction I received on that topic took about an hour. The instructor showed the class each count, and the class practiced just that count. Then the instruction moved onto the next count, and so on, until the class focused on putting it all into one fluid movement.

"Speed will come later, as you go home after class and practice for a month" he told everyone, "do it slowly here first so you are practicing the draw properly on your own later."


I'm not sure what sorts of things that firing rounds downrange demonstrates that can't be taught any other way than putting rounds downrange. I can think of some exceptions, like showing the class the differences in shooting cadences and split times. But the lessons an instructor may want to demonstrate is less about actually shooting and more about a skill, or a technique, or a body mechanic that putting rounds downrange isn't necessary for the demonstration.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I remember a technique that really has to be demonstrated to be believed.

It was part of the explanation of trigger control, actually prepping the trigger vs. slapping the trigger. Most people, especially new shooters, will slap through a trigger when they want to shoot faster...they'll even do this after they've learn to take advantage of the trigger's reset. The explanation is that prepping is more accurate and faster.

The demonstration is to fire a series of single shots in response to the timer, then you compare the times and the group size between the techniques of slapping and prepping

 

[BullfrogKen]

Ah, very good example.

 

[Ankeny]

The demonstration is to fire a series of single shots in response to the timer, then you compare the times and the group size between the techniques of slapping and prepping

Of course that depends on platform and distance. Had I been in the class, I would have asked the instructor why the majority (if not all) of the top 16 shooters at the Limited and Open USPSA Nationals sweep or slap the trigger a bunch. What happens when I can shoot a similar sized group in half the time while slapping the trigger? Therein lies the no win situation one of th other posters was speaking to.

 

[David E]

Ken, other examples are showing how to manage recoil in rapid fire and how to "ride the recoil."

Ankeny, my response would be, "know both, try both, pick the one that works best for you."

 

[NavyLCDR]

I expect them to shoot in front of the class.

I expect professionalism, courtesy, respect and competence.

What traits do YOU expect in a gun instructor?

Should they shoot in front of the class?

Whether or not they should shoot in front of the class depends entirely upon what the purpose of the class is.

I expect professionalism, courtesy, respect and competence from any instructor, why would gun instructors be different?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Of course that depends on platform and distance. Had I been in the class, I would have asked the instructor why the majority (if not all) of the top 16 shooters at the Limited and Open USPSA Nationals sweep or slap the trigger a bunch. What happens when I can shoot a similar sized group in half the time while slapping the trigger? Therein lies the no win situation one of th other posters was speaking to.

Then you'd be in the wrong level class

He actually does address it, but this class was about introducing a new technique to the shooters that made up the class.

Granted, he did demonstrate how accurate you can be slapping...at the end of the class. He might not have been that fast, as he's been retired from competing professionally for over 7 years, but he did place 6th at the last IPSC World Championships he shot at