Gun Owners and the McCarthy Era.

[El Tejon]

While McCarthy just investigated federal employees, the regular politicians of that era, and the Red Scare before it (the time period of the trials of Sacco and Vanzetti) used people's fear for their personal gain

No argument with this. Whether fear of Soviets, Nazis or Al-Qiada politicians must be met with a heavy burden of doubt. Necessity is the plea of all tyrants.

the time period of the trials of Sacco and Vanzetti

You do know they were guilty, right? That Upton Sinclair was told by the defense attorney that their defense was a complete fabrication and yet he wrote that groaning scold of a book anywho because they "should" have been innocent so Progressives could lecture us more?

 

[Rachen]

You do know they were guilty, right?

The book I am reading now says that there is only loose evidence about the guilt of the two defendants. Which only makes things more confusing to the reader.

 

[El Tejon]

Rachen, which book? How does the author address Upton Sinclair's confession?

Next time they catch one of my guys red-handed with a smoking gun, I'm going to tell the PA that he only has "loose evidence."

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Believe it. As previously stated, McCarthy didn't cause any "witch hunt against anyone associated" with communism. McCarthy sought the invistigation of exactly 57 federal employees suspected of being communists. No average civilians. No movie stars. No military officers. Today we think nothing of tearing into someones background before giving them a federal job (or even a local teaching job).

Oh. Then who are all of these people on McCarthy's list?

Senator Joseph McCarthy’s Lists and Venona



by John Earl Haynes

April 2007



Journalists and historians have often referred to Senator Joseph McCarthy’s “list” as if it were a precisely defined entity. It was not, however. Certainly one would put his “numbered” list of eighty-one cases, given in a Senate speech of February 20, 1950, as the prime candidate for being McCarthy’s “list.” But McCarthy himself quickly added several dozen more names to this list in communications to a subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (commonly referred to in the press as the “Tydings Committee” from its chairman, Senator Millard Tydings). The Tydings subcommittee in its “State Department Employee Loyalty Investigation” inquired into Senator McCarthy’s charges.



Most but not all of Senator McCarthy’s numbered cases were drawn from the “Lee List” or “108 list” of unresolved DOS security cases compiled by the investigators for the House Appropriates Committee in 1947. Robert E. Lee was the committee’s lead investigator and supervised preparation of the list. The Tydings subcommittee also obtained this list. The Lee list, also using numbers rather than names, was published in the proceeding of the subcommittee.[1]



Senator McCarthy furnished the Tydings Committee the real names attached to his numbered cases, and the Tydings Committee received the real names attached to the Lee list as well.[2] Over the years that followed all of the names became public one way or another.



Additionally, in a series of speeches McCarthy named others as secret Communists, spies, security risks, or participants in the Communist conspiracy. Below these various lists are recapitulated. Only those he named from 1950 through 1952 (prior to become chairman of the Senate Governmental Operations Committee) will be considered here. (All lists will be alphabetical.)




McCarthy’s List (1)

McCarthy’s 20 February Numbered List[3]



Real Name: McCarthy list #; Lee list #; Venona status; Non-Venona Evidence of Espionage

*****************************************************************************



Arndt, Ernest Theodore: McCarthy list # 14; Lee list # 10; Not identified in Venona



Barnett, Mrs. Robert Warren: McCarthy list # 49; Lee list # 59; Not identified in Venona



Barnett, Robert Warren: McCarthy list # 48; Lee list # 59; Not identified in Venona



Berman, Harold: McCarthy list # 70; Lee list # 85; Not identified in Venona



Brunauer, Esther Caukin: McCarthy list # 47; Lee list # 55; Not identified in Venona



Cameron, Gertrude: McCarthy list # 55; Lee list # 65; Not identified in Venona



Carlisle, Lois: McCarthy list # 58; Lee list # 68; Not identified in Venona



Carter, William D.: McCarthy list # 44; Lee list # 50; Not identified in Venona



Chipchin, Nelson: McCarthy list # 23; No on Lee List: Benign identification in Venona[4]



Clucas, Lowell M., Jr.: McCarthy list # 26; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona



Delgado, Mucio: McCarthy list # 21; Lee list # 28; Not identified in Venona



Demerjian, Alice: McCarthy list # 61; Lee list # 72; Not identified in Venona



Dubois, Cora: McCarthy list # 60; Lee list # 70; Not identified in Venona



Ferry, Frances: McCarthy list # 11; Lee list # 8; Not identified in Venona



Fierst, Herbert: McCarthy list # 1; Lee list # 51; Not identified in Venona



Fishback, Sam: McCarthy list # 43; Lee list # 49; Not identified in Venona



Ford, James T.: McCarthy list # 76; Lee list # 96; Not identified in Venona



Gordon, Stella: McCarthy list # 40; Lee list # 45; Not identified in Venona



Graze, Gerald: McCarthy list # 29; Lee list # 25; Not identified in Venona;[5] Identified as a Soviet Espionage Source in the Gorsky Memo[6]



Graze, Stanley: McCarthy list # 8; Lee list # 8; Not identified in Venona; Identified as a Soviet Espionage Source in the Gorsky Memo[7]



Grondahl, Tegnel Conrad: McCarthy list # 25; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona



Gross, Aaron Jack: McCarthy list # 68; Lee list # 83; Not identified in Venona



Harrison, Marcia Ruth: McCarthy list # 7; Lee list # 4; Not identified in Venona



Horwin, Leonard: McCarthy list # 73; Lee list # 91; Not identified in Venona



Hunt, Victor: McCarthy list # 65; Lee list # 79; Not identified in Venona



Ilyefalvi-Vites, Gizella: McCarthy list # 4; Lee list # 3; Not identified in Venona



Jankowski, Joseph T.: McCarthy list # 74; Lee list # 92; Not identified in Venona



Jessup, Philip: McCarthy list # 15; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona



Josephson, Joseph: McCarthy list # 30; Lee list # 28; Not identified in Venona



Kamarck, Andrew W.: McCarthy list # 78; Lee list # 100; Not identified in Venona



Katusich, Ivan: McCarthy list # 27; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona



Kaufman, Arthur Milton: McCarthy list # 38; Lee list # 43; Not identified in Venona



Kopelewish, Esther Less aka Mrs. Less: McCarthy list # 24; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona



Lansberg, Hans:[8] McCarthy list # 28; Lee list # 21; Not identified in Venona



Lemon, Edythe J.: McCarthy list # 18; Lee list # 16; Not identified in Venona



Lewis, Mrs. Preston Keesling: McCarthy list # 75; Lee list # 93; Not identified in Venona



Lifantieff-Lee, Paul A.: McCarthy list # 56; Lee list # 66; Not identified in Venona



Lindsey, John Richard: McCarthy list # 67; Lee list # 81; Not identified in Venona



Lloyd, David Demarest: McCarthy list # 9; Lee list # 99; Not identified in Venona



Lorwin, Val R.: McCarthy list # 54; Lee list # 64; Not identified in Venona



Maguite, Sylvia: McCarthy list # 69; Lee list # 84; Not identified in Venona



Mann, Gottfried Thomas: McCarthy list # 42; Lee list # 47; Not identified in Venona



Margolies, Daniel F.: McCarthy list # 41; Lee list # 46; Not identified in Venona



Margolin, Arnold D.: McCarthy list # 72; Lee list # 90;[9] Not identified in Venona



Meigs, Peveril: McCarthy list # 3; Lee list # 2; Not identified in Venona



Miller, Robert T.: McCarthy list # 16; Lee list # 12; Not identified in Venona;[10] First Identified as a Soviet Espionage Source by Elizabeth Bentley in her 1945 FBI statement.[11]



Montague, Ella M.: McCarthy list # 34; Lee list # 32; Not identified in Venona



Neal, Fred Warner: McCarthy list # 57; Lee list # 67; Not identified in Venona



Ness, Norman T.: McCarthy list # 45; Lee list # 53; Not identified in Venona



Neumann, Franz Leopold: McCarthy list # 59; Lee list # 69; Not identified in Venona[12] Identified as a Soviet Espionage Source in Weinstein and Vassiliev’s The Haunted Wood.[13]



Osnatch, Olga F.: McCarthy list # 37; Lee list # 42; Not identified in Venona



Parsons, Ruby A.: McCarthy list # 81; Lee list # 78; Not identified in Venona



Perkins, Isham W.: McCarthy list # 62; Lee list # 73; Not identified in Venona



Peter, Hollis W.: McCarthy list # 64; Lee list # 76; Not identified in Venona



Polyzoides, T. Achilles: McCarthy list # 79; Lee list # 105; Not identified in Venona



Posner, Marjorie S.: McCarthy list # 10; Lee list # 7; Not identified in Venona



Posniak, Edward G.: McCarthy list # 77; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona



Post, Richard: McCarthy list # 53; Lee list # 63; Not identified in Venona



Raine, Philip: McCarthy list # 52; Lee list # 62; Not identified in Venona



Randolph, David (aka Rosenberg): McCarthy list # 66; Lee list # 80; Not identified in Venona



Rapoport, Alexander: McCarthy list # 22; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona



Remington, William: McCarthy list # 19; Not on Lee List; Not identified in Venona. First Identified as a Soviet Source by Elizabeth Bentley in her 1945 FBI statement.[14]



Robinson, Jay: McCarthy list # 5; Lee list # 5; Not identified in Venona



Rommel, Rowena: McCarthy list # 51; Lee list # 61; Not identified in Venona



Ross, Lewis: McCarthy list # 31; Lee list # 29; Not identified in Venona



Ross, Robert: McCarthy list # 32; Lee list # 30; Not identified in Venona



Schimmel, Sylvia: McCarthy list # 50; Lee list # 60; Not identified in Venona



Shell, Melville: McCarthy list # 35; Lee list # 34; Not identified in Venona



Siegel, Herman: McCarthy list # 33; Lee list # 31; Not identified in Venona



Smith, S. Stevenson: McCarthy list # 20; Lee list # 20; Not identified in Venona



Smith (Schmidt), Frederick W.: McCarthy list # 36; Lee list # 40; Not identified in Venona



Stoinaoff, Stoian: McCarthy list # 71; Lee list # 87; Not identified in Venona



Stone, William T.: McCarthy list # 46; Lee list # 54; Not identified in Venona



Taylor, Jeanne E.: McCarthy list # 17; Lee list # 14; Not identified in Venona



Tuchscher, Frances M.: McCarthy list # 6; Lee list # 6; Not identified in Venona



Vincent, John Carter: McCarthy list # 2; Lee list # 52; Not identified in Venona



Volin, Maz A.: McCarthy list # 39; Lee list # 44; Not identified in Venona



Washburn [clerical error for Fishburn], John T.[15]: McCarthy list # 80; Lee list # 106; Not identified in Venona



Washburne, Carleton: McCarthy list # 13; Lee list # 9; Not identified in Venona



Wilcox, Stanley: McCarthy list # 63; Lee list # 75; Not identified in Venona



Yuhas, Helen: McCarthy list # 12; Lee list # 107; Not identified in Venona

*****************************************************************************

From the page linked above.

 

[Rachen]

A book that I have little respect for because it is very biased and liberal leaning. However, I had to read it for class, so I have to go along with it, at least for a semester.

It is called: Voices of Freedom, by Eric Foner.

I love reading ahead of the class, and in the last part, about the 'triumph of conservatism' in the 80s, the author calls Republicans and gun owners right wing extremists.

There are many good books out there, I don't know what made THAT one so appealing so to be as used in a history course.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Besides, my belief is that there are amazing and strong parallels between then and now; using fear and the demonization of a group, shadowy and insubstantial, that could bring down our Great Country As We Know It, so we'd all better start lining up on which side we belong.

Give up your rights, give up your guns, give up your privacies, all in the name of stopping the Global (fill in the blank)...drugs/terror/whatever.

The thing is, we don't NEED open meetings of congress or the house to do what happened then; your information is tapped all the time without anyone really knowing it. Take steps to prevent it (Pretty Good Privacy, use of proxies, etc.) and you're automatically accused of "having something to hide."

"Sure, I'll fill out that 4473 -- after all, I'VE got nothing to hide! And looky at this dude who wants to buy a gun from me face to face. What does he have to hide?"

 

[Markbo]

Wow. "Right Wing Extremist". I didn't even know I was part of the fringe!

 

[Rachen]

See what they teach people in NYC???

They even try that on college students, even though some of them are grown, mature, can think for themselves, and do not trust everything they see or hear. But of course, they still spread their propanganda, hoping some uneducated individual would pick it up and spread it further.

The author of that book also says: "There are certain right wing extremist groups who use the American Revolution as a basis to spread their political agenda................" So I think he is implying that anyone who believes in the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights is a terrorist.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Oh. Then who are all of these people on McCarthy's list?

Amusing list. I wonder who generated it. McCarthy states his list contained 57 names. The Democrats actually wanted to charge him with perjury because they claim he said he had a list of 205 names. He stuck with his 57 names list and the Democrats had to give up because they could find no proof of a list exceeding that number.

Plus, McCarthy wanted to keep his list secret and hold the hearings in clossed session. That way, if you check out, no problem. The Democrats not only wanted the hearings held in front of the media, they voted to compel McCarthy to release the names on his list.

Even if that is a true list from McCarthy, he was right. The government at the time was loaded with communists. An interesting side note to Verona was that the project began in 1943 and there were so many suspected communists in the government at that time, neither FDR nor Truman were informed about the project.

Of course, some people still think Alger Hiss was innocent.

 

[Khornet]

Pay attention, people

El Tejon just gave you a history lesson. He clearly knows more about what actually happened--not the popular myth, but what really happened--than most.

If you are serious about the truth, you will read 'Venona', 'Blacklisted by History',
'The Haunted Wood', and others.

We have been hearing only one side of the story for 50 years. There really is another side, and that side was right as it happens.

Joe McCarthy was despised, but that doesn't tell us a thing about whether he was right.

Do some reading.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Amusing list. I wonder who generated it.

Well, I was born in 1971, so all of this was quite out of my realm of experience. However, did you even bother to read what I posted from the link, or even read the link itself?

He stuck with his 57 names list and the Democrats had to give up because they could find no proof of a list exceeding that number.

Certainly one would put his “numbered” list of eighty-one cases, given in a Senate speech of February 20, 1950, as the prime candidate for being McCarthy’s “list.”

This sounds reasonable to me. Do you have any link or book regarding the 57 people and their names and why he stuck with only those?

If Sen. McCarthy was a man to be highly respected, please, show me some more evidence and some things I can read to better form my opinion. I have changed my mind on many things I was ignorant of or was given false or misleading information about. I am open to hearing more about his methods which, according to what I've read and heard about, weren't really aimed at upholding the Constitution.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

This sounds reasonable to me. Do you have any link or book regarding the 57 people and their names and why he stuck with only those?

I wish I did. Like the list you linked to, there isn't a specific list. If you read the footnotes at the bottom of your link, you will see the author attempted to compile his list from dozens of sources. Of those sources, some are highly unreliable. The author also points out that he agrees that the majority of those on his list should be considered "security risks" and the only way to be sure would be to do an extensive background check on every name on that list. Essentially what McCarthy was trying to do in the first place.

Other than the books listed throughout this discussion, I cannot point you toward any good books on the subject. I base my views on books I have read over the last 40+ years.

Bet El Tejon could supply you with an excellent reading list.

 

[rickomatic]

I believe the people he mentioned were communists, he just couldn't prove it.

Joe McCarthy was an arrogant blowhard. However, he was right about the Commies. History has proven him correct about Communist infiltration in both the Hollywood scene, as well as the government.
Just think what might have happened had he not been the ass he was.
That was in the days before political correctness. I firmly believe that political correctness is hiding a lot of nefarious activity in our country today.
I fear what could happen should people be afraid to point out unAmerican activity simply because someone might call them "mean".

 

[Robert Hairless]

Some messages posted in this discussion by people who were not even born then have almost persuaded me to mistrust my own eyes and ears, and the experience of having lived through and participated in those times as an adult. Had I only known then some of what I've seen here, I could have skipped the whole thing and read a book or the Internet.

One thing I've learned here is that attitudes haven't changed much in all that time: if asked to incriminate yourself or defend your thoughts and behavior--by the Congress, employers or potential employers, or the police or prosecutors--those questions are right and proper and you must answer them if you are a loyal American.

"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?" or "Are you now or have you ever been a member of Gun Owners of America?" or "Are you now or have you ever been a Jew?" or "Are you now or have you ever been a supporter of the war in Iraq?" or "Are you now or have you ever cheated on your wife ... spanked your child ... had too much to drink ... read a subversive book ... passed a red light ... carried a concealed firearm in a prohibited place ...." We need to know these things and more for the safety of society, the protection of our country, and the security of the American way of life.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Robert Hairless

The questions you referenced, which body of the Congress did they take place in the House or the Senate, and could you please reference a year so I could look them up.

 

[El Tejon]

Sage, first, try Blacklisted by History by M. Stanton Evans. I read it when it first came out.

If you are not a history geek, it can get a bit ponderous but I think it is well worth it.

Robert, most of those questions (no one asked me if I was Jewish or owned guns) were asked of certain members of this board when we worked for the federal government. What was wrong with asking federal employees if they were Communists?

Clearly people who denied being Communists (e.g., William Remington) had something to hide as their loyalty was to Moscow, not the USA.

 

[El Tejon]

Rachen, yes, Foner is not my favorite professor, but I did enjoy his Free Soil, Free Labor, Free Men (the formation of the antebellum Republican Party).

 

[ranger335v]

"...facts were bloated to hideous proportions by a media that fed on people's fears."

Nothing's changed.

"I wish to know how the gun owning population fared during this time. Did they suffer any persecution?"

NO. During that period our "intellectual" loonies, the now dominate social/political liberals, had not yet been allowd to take the reins of either the media, government or schools. Political Correctness foolishness was still far into the future and common sense was still common. There was no organised persecution of gun owners.

In the late 40s and early 50s McCarthy was right in most ways but he, like many politicians, learned to love to strut in front of the cameras. He over-reached in some ludacrous ways, again like most politicians today, and then, having lost his credibilty in the meda, he was pilloried by the "left" and made into a silly caracature. But Joe Mc was right in >90% of what he said and who he accused, as history has proven, but neither our media or education systems will allow that side of him to become known. Their attacks on him at the time were partly right, but the effect was like throwing the baby out with the bath water, Joe's truth was tossed along with the dirty water and our country has suffered great harm because of it. But, organised and focused political demonising of gun owners didn't began until about 10 years later.

By the early 60s, social liberals had gained near total dominance of education and the media so when JFK was shot they were in positions that allowed them to control much of the public debate. Demonising guns and their owners became common within a couple of years. Political liberals soon gained almost total dominance of the Democrat party and nothing has changed since.

We honest shooters remain under attack without justification, just as did some of McCarthy's victims, but McCarthy himself had no part in it. For all his many failings, Joe was no silly liberal.

 

[Khornet]

in Blacklisted By History

Mr. Evans decided to take an unusual approach: instead of summarizing what other people have written or thought, he went back to primary documents such as the transcripts of the hearings, and interviewed witnesses, although there were not many left.

Instead of just accepting what we all "know" from what the newspapers have always told us, he investigated the story of the famous 57 names.

It turns out that the number was present in a rough draft of McCarthy's Wheeling, West Virginia speech. that draft was seen by a local reporter, and although he was told it was a rough draft, he went ahead and published it as a transcript of the actual speech. Everyone who has since written on the subject has accepted as fact that he made the claim of 57 names. Witnesses, however, tell a different story, and say that there was no specific number of names mentioned. One witness actually took notes of the meeting and was able to refer to them during the interview, verifying that no specific number was mentioned. So one person got the story wrong at the start, and that wrong version has become universally accepted as truth.

There are many similar McCarthy myths which are just that. Overall, it appears that McCarthy did identify a real threat, and the response of the administration immediately was to cover it up and demonize McCarthy. In this they were successful.

 

[benEzra]

Keep in mind that we are discussing more than Sen. McCarthy here; we are discussing what is often called, rightly or wrongly, the McCarthy era.

Warrantless searches and wiretapping did occur, as did convictions in the media without regard to the truth, lack of due process, secret paid informants making anonymous allegations, secret evidence at trials and hearings, and secret watchlists created at bureaucratic whim.

Perhaps all of McCarthy's defenders here are right, and, hypothetically, he had nothing to do with those things and would have been appalled had he known about them. Maybe we should call it "J-Edgar-Hooverism" rather than McCarthyism. Fine. But those egregious abuses did occur, on a large scale, and they were wrong and un-American in the truest sense.

 

[El Tejon]

The problem is that McCarthy has become political defense, see Islamaphobia.

McCarthy wanted to know why Democratic Administrations were turning a blind eye to Communists in the federal government. The Democrats attacked McCarthy giving cover fire to traitors in the federal government.

Legitimate questions are pushed aside to make politicial points. This is the danger of "McCarthyism".

 

[Citroen]

Listen to El Tejon - he has it right

Although I did not read all of the posts but I DID watch a good bit of the McCarthy Hearings. I may have been the only high school student that hurried home to sit with his grandmother and watch the black and white TV!

Unless I have lost them in moving, I also have the Congressional Record for the Hearings.

McCarthy was right - the left hated him and mounted a vicious attack of lies and slander to discredit him.

Believe what you want but I believe he was a hero!

As to the original question - the 1950s did not see anything you might call "gun control". You could mail order guns from Herter's (remember them?) or from Klein's. You could even buy anti-tank guns if you wanted them and could pay the shipping.

Gun owners were not persecuted nor were they afraid of being persecuted. I frequently took a gun to school (hunted early in the morning - then straight to school) - There were NO school massacres.

As far as I know, Senator Joe McCarthy never mentioned guns or gun owners.

Revisionist versions of history not withstanding, it was Senator McCarthy that was attacked without mercy or cause.

John
Charlotte, NC

 

[Hawk]

I'm going to have to go along with Robert Hairless and Ben Ezra.

First, M. Stanton Evan isn't an historian. Neither is his cheerleader, so far as I've been able to determine.

Second, distinguishing McCarthy from McCarthy-ISM and / or the McCarthy ERA isn't as clear cut a task as may have been in the past. Nevertheless, not all the obfuscation is working against the former Wisconsin Senator.

To those that think he has been maligned by an unsympathetic liberal press, I would propose the following experiment:

There is no shortage of primary documentation. As Khornet suggested: "Do some reading". BUT (and here's Hawk's .02) don't, for cryin' out loud, base your reading only on those associated with groups with a stated agenda. Read both sides, hang out in the archives, try talking to those that were there.

Revisionist history blows - I don't care if the revision appeals to my prejudices or not. A little skepticism, please?

Really, what would you expect someone affiliated with the American Conservative Union to write for Pete's sake? Mix it with a little opposition view or at least make an attempt at finding unspun sources. If you still think Coulter's synopsis is spot on, I'll at least respect your view - won't agree with it, but I'll respect it.

 

[Cosmoline]

Another thing that burns me is this outrageous over the blacklist. Hollywood blacklists people on a DAILY BASIS and has always done so. An actor will anger a powerful producer and that's it for them. They go from golden child to persona non grata. Sometimes it's over politics, sometimes money often just personality. But smart actors have always known who butters their bread, and behave accordingly. Otherwise they're finished.

For example, if an actor were to argue that the 50's blacklist was not such a bad idea, he would in fact be blacklisted for it.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Read both sides, hang out in the archives,

Always! Gotta read the good and the bad.

I have copies of My Life ala Bill Clinton, Living History ala Hillary Clinton and one of the worst books ever written, A People's History of the United States 1492-Present by Howard Zinn.