Gun Safe Opinions

[DaisyCutter]

I've always had a supplemental insurance policy for firearms, and now I want a safe.

Some buddies have spent $2000-3000 on Fort Knox safes. They are trying to sway me. Obviously the cheaper $200--500 sheet metal cabinets are more for decoration. My current price point I want to spend is $1000-1200, which I would hope would get me something durable. Searching online shows big guys popping open $1000 safes using crowbars in seconds. However, I've never seen a pried safe in dozens of burglaries I've investigated. In fact, I've only seen half-hearted dial attacks and pnuematic cut-off tool attacks. In those cases, even the $500-600 safes held. Usually the burglar is acting alone, and as long as the safe weighs 500+ lbs (unloaded), it should be too tough to move for one guy.

My unscientific value assessment idea is to find the heaviest weight safe in a defined price range, with the assumption it has the most steel.

What is your comfort level?

What is a good price point?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I am comfortable with a decent RSC to stop the smash and grabbers and a fat insurance policy to cover my anything else.

 

[SwaneeSR]

Well, i started out with the $300 option years ago. A couple years back, i upgraded to the $3000 option. I have family members that have purchased the $1000 option.

Like you stated in the OP, depending in the crook(s), the $1000 option may be enough to get you through the break in. Another option I have seen on THR is concealment of the safe or offering up a cheap safe as a decoy.

Given enough time, my safe would fall to the professional. I do think the more expensive and the better fire rating improve your chances greatly.

Up-to-date insurance is a great idea. Also recording the serial numbers and keeping a photo of each firearm is a must. Keeping this information in an offsite location like a safety deposit box or equal.

Whatever you decide, make sure you secure the safe to the floor. The videos i have seen show two guys throw the safe on its back and work it with a small and large bar.

I have a safe to restrict access to children, offer some fire protection, protect from the typical smash burglar or teenager robber. I think most safes can offer that protection at the $1000 - $1800 price point.

After reading the recent thread on to display or not to display your guns, i think the safe you purchase is only one factor. The main thing is you need to manage for the risk you see where you live.

 

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

Buy the best safe you can afford. Do you want to put several thousand dollars of guns in a $1,200 safe? Get a safe that is larger than you need now, key word now. I also own a Fort Know safe with a dial. It has been problem free for 30 years.

 

[Savage99]

When I get another safe it's going to be one I can assemble where I want it and when I move take it with me!

Such safes are made by Snap Safe, Zanotti and others.

 

[FAS1]

I agree with buying the best safe you can afford. It will probably last you a lifetime especially if you stick with a UL rated mechanical lock. Have you looked at the AMSEC line? I like their Drylight insulation vs sheetrock. They are on the more $$$ side when it comes to an RSC, but I think you get what you pay for when it comes to security.

http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes/bf-gun-safes/

 

[DaisyCutter]

I'm starting to conclude that the videos of a couple guys prying doors are mostly scare tactics to get people to spend more money.

Realistically, the videos always show a couple husky 200# plus guys working 4' prybars. They have ample space to work, and have no concern for the noise they are making or whether the cops will roll up on them while they are engrossed in their act.

The usual burglar I arrest is a 150-160# tweeker, who works alone, and rips off his acquaintances. He doesn't use a 4' prybar, or any tool beyond a screwdriver.

My yard is fenced. I have a couple big scary dogs. I don't "advertise" my wares.

I'm just trying to decide whether a 600# RSC is a rational choice or a rationalized one. If I load it up with 200#s of hardware, it'll be too heavy for 2 men to move.

Honestly, 100% of the stolen gun burglaries I've investigated had no safe. And the one time it involved a safe, it was an RSC, and it held against a dial attack and an angle grinder attack.

 

[jrdolall]

I personally think the $800 safes are adequate for most circumstances. The $150 "safes" like Stack-On are probably not going to stop anyone. The normal safes we see everywhere we go (Tractor Supply normally has good prices) will be sufficient to stop smash and grab thieves that are looking to get in and out quickly with whatever they can steal in 10 minutes or less.

A decent safe, bolted to the floor, will stop virtually all thieves. A $3500 safe can be dealt with if a knowledgeable criminal has sufficient time and tools. I have two of the "decent" safes and I feel good about my firearms.

 

[oneounceload]

I'm just trying to decide whether a 600# RSC is a rational choice or a rationalized one. If I load it up with 200#s of hardware, it'll be too heavy for 2 men to move.

Both Costco and Sam's Club sell handtrucks that will hold 800+#. If it isn't bolted down, they'll just wheel right out the door.

Another thing to consider is that most RSCs are made from 11 or 12 gauge steel and unless the corners are seriously reinforced, a few good smacks with an 8# sledge can crack one open like a walnut.
I used a common electric drill and old bit to drill a hoke for the cord for my goldenrod. Didn't take too long to go through the steel side wall.

 

[cloudcroft]

DaisyCutter,

For me -- and lots of other people as well -- the brand of "safe" to add to any Short List is Sturdy Safe (Fresno, CA). While all of these "gun safes" are technically called RSCs, Sturdy Safes are "serious" RSCs, if you will.

They have thicker steel (5/16" thick doors, 3/16" everything else) and would be WAY harder to get into than even my earlier Liberty Presidential (top of their line) would be. And you can even have them add MORE STEEL if you want. Check out Sturdy Safe's YouTube video clips how they can resist attempts to open them...

Sturdy Safe is American-made using American steel (not Chinese crap slag steel and welds). Plus, it's linkage is strong and simple. Get them with or without fire protection.

http://www.sturdysafe.com/

IMO, they're best "safe" (RSC) for your dollar -- and the most steel for it, too. I'd even get a Sturdy Safe over a much more expensive Ft. Knox.

Good luck...

 

[cdk8]

If you are looking for burglary protection, I would advise considering alternative brands. The value of the contents of your collection, what you plan to keep inside the safe, and level of protection you desire will weigh heavily on what safe is "best" for your specific application. My lowest comfort level is a B-rated safe for low security, and a TL-15 or higher for medium-higher security. I also prefer safes with UL fire ratings over the third parties that do fire testing and their own certifications.

I do not consider base RSC's (that is, a safe that is built to the minimum construction requirements needed for the UL to accept the safe for RSC rating, in which it is awarded the RSC rating if it passes the test) to be a burglary safe due to the extremely thin side armor. (A B-rated safe that also so happens to have been tested and certified as a RSC is a different story entirely because this safe has side walls that are more than twice as thick as that base RSC.) Still, bear in mind that a RSC certification only signifies that the front door was attacked by one man with basic hand tools for only 5 minutes without being defeated...that in and of itself shows the amount of protection here is very limited. The tendency of people to (incorrectly) use the term "TL-5" to describe a RSC is extremely misleading due to dramatic differences in UL's attack procedures of safes being tested for RSC versus safes being tested for TL-15+.

Is a Fort Knox best for you? Fort Knox makes some nice products with an outstanding fit and finish and great fire protection, but a LOT of money is going toward cosmetic embellishments that do not aid security. IIRC their highest end models are B-rate safes+, but their flagship Legend is often priced HIGHER than a Graffunder C-rate-Castle or TL-15-Emperor, yet the Graffunder is far, far, far, far, far superior. Even the mid/mid-high model Fort Knox safes, especially with armor or cosmetic upgrades, can quickly get more expensive than the Brown HD (a different company than Browning). The Brown HD's minimum protection level is TL-15, and as a cosmetically plain safe it's a pretty economical option for someone wanting a safe with that, like the Graffunder, can withstand skilled tooled attacks and protect the contents in really nasty fires. The side armor of the HD is about 2.5 inches of steel plates and very high density composites. On a safe with 10 gauge side walls and fireboard, that side armor is only about .13 inches. That's a big difference. And many criminals are well aware of this.

In many cases, you can find used high security safes (i.e., a safe with a formal UL TL-15 rating or higher) for a lot less than many mid-level (and most high-level) gun safes. Just a few of the makers include Meilink, Chubb, Brown, Wilson, AmSec, DieBold, Bischoff, Mosler, Adesco, FireKing, Graffunder, ISM, Tann, Knight, etc.

Finally, whether you want a dial lock or an electronic lock, I would encourage you to invest in a high quality model. For example, the S&G 6730 is the benchmark of the Group 2 mechanical dial locks due to extreme reliability...however, the S&G 6741 has seriously scaled back on the use of brass to save money, and despite being extremely common with gun safes, this lock does not have the quality or reliability of the 6730. If the 6741 breaks (which I've seen on numerous occasions and feel its failure happens quite a bit more frequent than with the 6730), drilling the safe will cost a lot more money than outright investing in the superior 6730. If you do go in the route of a high security safe, investment in a manipulation resistant Group 2M (medium) or Group 1/1R (high) lock may also be worthwhile. The S&G 6630 g2M (which is more or less a 6730 with two added features designed to make manipulation moderately difficult) is an outstanding performer with a reasonable price.

 

[njl]

If your RSC is bolted down, it probably doesn't matter if it's 400lbs or 1000lbs...one guy with a hand truck isn't moving it. If your goal is keeping guns away from kids or a quick smash & grab robber, a bolted down RSC should be fine.

 

[diablo2184]

I was in between a Sturdy and Amsec. I went with the latter just because it suited my needs and my budget. Yes it's still considered an "RSC" but with all my other security features,
I think it will be ok for what I need it for. I would only recommend one of these brands if you dont need a TL-rated safe.

Good luck with your search and choice. I would stay away from the cheaper cabinets and safes. Trust me, save your money and get something that will last and protect.

 

[cloudcroft]

diablo2184,

Which Amsec did you get?

 

[diablo2184]

Bf6036

 

[GBExpat]

15 years ago (~1½ prior to getting my first 03FFL ) I bought a Ft.Knox Defender 6637 with a dial lock. I redesigned the dividers so that 48 longguns actually fit in the silly thing. That plus the 2 full-width shelves provided a LOT of storage space for both long & hand guns.

Two short years later I bought a second 6637 (installed on the other end of my 8' gun/reloading bench) as firearms were once again populating closet corners & drawers ...

I have since resisted the urge for a 3rd (helped greatly by the end of the milsurp golden age), instead, electing to leave the least valuable/desirable longguns out (sans bolts).

With my alarm system, "secondary security system" and the fact that the house is rarely unoccupied (and then for only short periods) I am comfortable with this setup and this grade of RSCs.

FWIW.

 

[Sunray]

"...safe weighs 500+ lbs..." Doesn't take that much to deter a thief. Who are rarely big guys. Trying to move a 500ish pound safe is a lot like work. Thieves are thieves because they don't want to work.
A 500 lb. safe mightrequire looking at the floor structural strength too. And you have to consider how you will move it in the event you need to do so.

 

[cloudcroft]

diablo2184,

Nice...that should keep your stuff very "safe" I'm sure! ;-)

In my case, I needed something with thick enough steel to feel better about it (vs. the typical 10, 11, 12-gauge steel RSCs being sold all over the Internet and even Big Box stores, and even better than my earlier Liberty Presidential in several ways) yet not too big or with steel that was too thick so it wouldn't weigh TOO much for me to handle by myself. So MY choice was their 2nd size up Sturdy Safe 2419 (as mentioned above): Big enough for my guns & ammo yet not too heavy for me personally to handle moving (I move every 4 years or so).

I DID consider the take-down Zanotti Armor Safes, but the Sturdy has thicker steel and is still manageable by one person (even up stairs). PLUS, when I called Mr. Zanotti (they make you call, don't have any e-mail contact) he said they presently are @ about a 7-month lead time (no thanks!). So I just went with Sturdy (4-6 weeks lead time), which cost me about the same as the Zanotti would have. And my SF-2419 is on the truck now...



Sunray,

A while back -- I think it was from a TV show re: home security -- a safe 350lbs or less is considered "movable" by just one street-trash criminal so especially the lighter-weight safes/RSCs need to be bolted down.

Actually, IMO, if your safe weighs less than your car, it needs to be bolted down! Criminals (even the stupid ones) are often underestimated, and can be more "resourceful" than most people imagine. ;-)

But if you have several smaller safes, especially if you're a renter and can't bolt-down anything (too many huge hole to repair or pay for before moving) -- bolting all the safes together not only makes them heavier (as one complete unit) but also may make them unmovable another way: If all bolted together in a way that they won't fit through a standard door opening.

It's unfortunate decent people have to spend so much time, effort and $$$$ to secure our stuff from the low-lifes who just want to take it.

 

[oneounceload]

"...safe weighs 500+ lbs..." Doesn't take that much to deter a thief. Who are rarely big guys. Trying to move a 500ish pound safe is a lot like work. Thieves are thieves because they don't want to work.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/super-...ose-hand-truck-green/184122.ip?navAction=push



Handles 900 pounds

 

[njl]

That hand truck might have a 900lb capacity, but one small guy isn't going to be able to tilt it back to the balance point without doing something to improve the leverage, and even after that, they probably won't be able to put it back down without dropping it....and that's just my experience trying to move a 520lb safe that was empty. I have moved an empty 350lb safe alone with a handtruck like that one. At the time, I was 6', 180lbs. With 2 guys and a hand truck, 520lbs really isn't difficult...especially if they don't care about scraping doorways or denting walls.

 

[cloudcroft]

One good thing about a safe with external hinges is that the door usually comes off, which really helps when it comes time to move it.

[I'm talking here about the OWNER moving it, not thieves!]

A door is about 30% of a safe's/RSC's total weight, so removing it lightens up the body of the safe 30%, making it "30% easier" to move. Of course, you have to move the safe in 2 trips (one for the door and one for the body) but at least you're not having to move the entire weight all at once -- whether you're doing it alone or have help. And taking out all the shelving helps a bit, also. MORE so weight-wise, taking out any sheetrock "fire protection" lightens it up considerably (in a safe that uses sheet-rock, and as long as you can take it out and put it back without damage)! Especially true for RSC's with the thinner sheet metal gauges.

My Liberty Presidential had internal hinges...you had to move the WHOLE 1000lbs safe/RSC at once -- not cool! But at least you could remove all the shelving and LOTS of sheet-rock (4 layers of it on each side, back, top and bottom) which DID help -- but THAT was a job in itself.

 

[cdk8]

Regardless of the weight, if this is not a high-security safe weighing well over a ton, it's still worth bolting down securely. Stories of having safes weighing over 1,000 pounds stolen are not completely uncommon. Additionally, bolting it down will reduce the chance they are able to ruin your home with the safe (and believe me, they will.) A criminal will gladly roll a safe down a flight of stairs or knock it through a window or wall. Even if they fail to defeat it, they can easily ruin the internal contents as well as a lot of walls and floors, leaving the owner with some big repair bills and insurance frustrations. Bolting it does not stop this completely, but it can greatly delay it.

As an added benefit, bolting it down as part of a good install can make it more difficult to attack the most vulnerable parts of the safe. Ideally, we want to attempt to force a criminal to go through the most armored part of the safe, which is almost always the front door. The more awkward we can make getting leverage on the side walls or top and the more we can restrict access to these areas, the better. If the safe is not bolted, they will just move it so they can then attack a more vulnerable side. If one of those sides has armor thickness that is only in the 16-10 gauge range, the safe's in big trouble!

 

[BigTrucks4Life]

watch craigslist if you are not in a hurry to buy. I bought my liberty lincoln which is a 2500 safe for 1000 used. I have seen several high quality safes for sale on craigslist over the past year that were very good deals. I was planning on buying a sturdy safe. The quote was around 2300 for the one I was planning on getting. They make a great product. I would not buy a safe from a big box store if it is under 1000. There are to many higher end safes that are used that you can find for that amount of money. I care more about the fire protection than burglary in my area. That is why I wanted a higher rating and went with a more expensive safe. Also bolt down the safe, my safe weighs right around 1000 pounds with the the ammo/ weapons inside. The safe alone is 800 pounds if that gives you an idea. It almost killed me moving it in the house!

My opinion on the more expensive fort knox type of safes is how much is your guns valued at? Use that as a determinant for how much you would like to spend. For me I do not have 10000 worth of guns therefore I do not need a 5000 safe.