Gun safes?

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Hmm, I thought is was a range of hand tools including drills, prybars, etc....
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It has been so long since I have seen the standard issued by UL that I don't remember everything that is said.

The standards themselves are not easy to find, and typically only owned by manufacturers. You could buy the UL standard in writing for the RSC label, but I think it costs somewhere around $600 for a few pages that explain it in their terms.

I see many websites say "a range of tools", and I specifically remember a hammer and screwdriver mentioned. I do not remember any power tools mentioned.

I know there was a description of the hammer, but don't recall it. If I recall correctly, the screwdriver (or leverage device) was limited to 18" or shorter in length.

So essentially it's a standard saying that the safe should resist entry by a hammer larger than a carpenter's hammer, but smaller than a sledge, and a large screwdriver.

I couldn't possibly include drills, because If I had my equipment set up, I could drill, scope, and open most gun safes in less than 5 minutes. The UL techs should be better at this than I would be.
 
Fella's;

We'll do this one more time. If it isn't at least 1/4" plate steel on all 6 sides, U.L. will not rate it as a safe.

I checked the Browning site that Throttle Jockey linked to. I looked at the Browning Premium, the highest grade listed on site. The Browning site says that the body is 3/16" steel. Three sixteenths is 25% less than 1/4".

There's bad info floatin' around, but I most certainly don't believe that it's information I've put out.

900F
 
I stand corrected. However the one I bought was sold as a safe, and does have a UL sticker on it. So you can see the confusion. Also, it has a made in the USA sticker on. So perhaps we should investigate a class action suit?
 
I stand corrected. However the one I bought was sold as a safe, and does have a UL sticker on it. So you can see the confusion. Also, it has a made in the USA sticker on. So perhaps we should investigate a class action suit?
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This is one of my big peeves with these safe companies. Of all the things that your average consumer is looking at on a safe, the fireproofing is number 1 on the list. The safe manufacturer gets a RSC label, and makes their fire "rating" label look similar. The stick the two together, and all of a sudden everybody thinks the safe has a UL fire rating.

I won't go as far as calling them liars, but gun safe manufacturers tend to be very deceptive, stretch the truth whenever they can, and mislead consumers in many ways. The people who sell these safes repeat everything that the manufacturer has told them, and not knowing any better, spread that information. They have told the same story so many times, that they sound like they know what they're talking about. If they sound like pros, they must be pros right?

I would suggest that anybody buying a safe ask the following question before buying: "If my safe won't open, will YOU come out and open it?" If they won't, or more likely can't, open the safes they sell, they probably don't know much about safes in the first place.

As far as where safes are made.....

Browning (Pro Steel) does make safes here in the US. They also import a number of them. Regardless of where it's made, or who makes the lock, chances are the lock is Chinese.

I think some companies import the shell and interior of the safe separately, assemble it in the US, and then claim it's made in the US. I think some companies import safes and falsely claim they are made here. I also think some of the imported Chinsese safes are built better than some of the safes made here in the US.

Liberty had an issue a few years ago when it came to light that some of their safes were imported when the company was advertising their Made In The USA safes.
 
i have a liberty safe that is lag bolted to the floor in the basement...I recommend liberty but there are other fine gun containers out there.
 
The fire protection rating IMO is what counts. I am not a safe expert but my safe is rated at as 1275 degrees for 90 minutes and maintains the interior temperature of less than 350 degrees. It is a American Security Fire Resistant Gun Safe and only weighs 850 lbs empty but is bolted to the concrete floor. Awarded the U.L. Residential Security Container (RSC) burglary classification. When the safe was purchased it was on sale and at the time to large for my needs, 2 hand guns and 1 shotgun, now it is to small. Keep the future gun buys in mind.



Delivery questions to ask: (1) To the house and into the room? If no, how much additional will it cost to have it put in the room. (2) Will it fit thru a standard size doorway.
 
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Fella's;

OK, let's talk about what chuckusaret has posted. Chuck, do you know the test parameters for the figures you gave us? In other words, was the test unit put in the funace and brought up to 1275f & then the 90 minute test period started, or not? If the test period started when the gas was lit, what was the rise time to test temperature? Do you know if it was 5 minutes to get to 1275f, or 89 minutes? Do you know if the container was placed in the furnace in the upright postion that it would be normally be found in in the home? Or was it laid on its side?

Perhaps you now have a better appreciation of how mis-leading things can be in the wild world of safe sales.

There are two major types of safe ratings put out. The first is the B, C, E, etc., system. It is a construction rating. It specifies that if the safe is built to the spec, it then meets the spec. The other is an attack resistance rating, that's the TL, TR system. If a safe is rated TL15, the door is considered proof against forced entry for 15 minutes. Just the door. If the rating is TL15X6, then all six sides are considered to be proof against forced entry for 15 minutes. Forced entry, not torch. The thermal portion of the system is TR. So then, if a safe is rated TL/TR15, the door is good for 15 minutes against both torch and forced entry attack.

Frankly, I have my doubts about the impartiality of both the site you referenced and the California DOJ. But then, some people think I'm a cynic. Go figure.

900F
 
Frankly, I have my doubts about the impartiality of both the site you referenced and the California DOJ
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As somebody in the business who also has a website, I have noticed something interesting.

I have seen many sites selling safes (that aren't really in the safe business) who appear to have stolen their misinformation from another site (who isn't really in the safe business). In some cases, this is word for word.

Seems the same misinformation is going round and round and round the internet.

Although the internet is a good place to start, you really need to talk to somebody who knows what they're talking about if you want to hear the truth.
 
Impartiality for the California DOJ is non-existent. A safe manufacturer must apply for the Cali DOJ certification. There are quite a few substantial "safes" that don't have the Cali DOJ certification. However, the Stack-on boxes do have the certification...'nuff said.

My first "safe" has been a Stack-on. The Cali DOJ certification makes things easier when purchasing a gun in California. Also, it would look good in court if I could show a simple-minded jury that my "safe" is Cali DOJ certified. If Stack-on didn't have the certification, I wouldn't have gotten a Stack-on. The Cali DOJ gives little or no indication of quality. I'm not in the market for a substantial safe. So, it's fine for me.
 
Chuck, do you know the test parameters for the figures you gave us? In other words, was the test unit put in the funace and brought up to 1275f & then the 90 minute test period started, or not? If the test period started when the gas was lit, what was the rise time to test temperature? Do you know if it was 5 minutes to get to 1275f, or 89 minutes? Do you know if the container was placed in the furnace in the upright postion that it would be normally be found in in the home? Or was it laid on its side?

Perhaps you now have a better appreciation of how mis-leading things can be in the wild world of safe sales.
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Thanks, you convinced me.
A safe I can afford is no good.
I'll just leave everything in the wooden desk drawer.
Most likely I would only be robbed by a safe cracker anyway.
 
This ongoing discussion about safes vs. RSCs is an important and informative one, but to the previous post's point, something is better than nothing. A Browning Medallion, for example, may indeed be classified as an RSC rather than a "true" safe, but it's still going to offer great protection against a smash and grab, and if bolted to a floor isn't likely to be hauled away, at least not by anyone who is trying to be relatively quick (I mention this one because it's one of the models sold at my local range). I think these weigh in the neighborhood of 1000 lbs empty, and add several hundred pounds with ammo, etc. you're at a pretty unwieldy weight.

Could you professional safe guys get into most RSCs pretty quickly? Maybe. Even probably. But most burglars aren't going to be safe crackers, and with proper precautions a good strong RSC (and one that's bolted to the floor) does offer a lot of protection (not to mention keeping guns away from younger hands).
 
Fella's;

Regarding Rockhound's assertion: Go to Youtube & bring up the video "Security On Sale". The major objection I've seen noted to S-O-S is that the perps knocked the container over first. However, they did pop the door in one minute and forty-four seconds. With the container bolted upright, I think it could still get done in under 5 minutes. Or a couple of other ways I won't get into here. No sense in providing information for people who want to get into your safe.

My point is that an RSC is very basic protection. Know what you're getting, don't expect it to rival a bank vault. Get the features you need at the least cost, there's no substantial protective difference between most of them.

900F

900F
 
I have a National Security Classic 30. It weighs 922 lbs.

One thing to look for is the fire rating. Mine is rated, for example, that at 1638degrees it takes 45 minutes to get to 275 degrees inside. Paper chars at 350 degrees. House fires are usually out or less than 1638 before 45 minutes passes. Be careful of fire ratings that talk about "averages". You want one that tells you how long it takes to get to a specific internal temp below charring, at a specific external temp.

Check out safe and lock companies. They may have safes that have been scratched or chips of paint bunged off. You can save a bunch on a safe like that. I think I paid $1800.00 for mine in 1999. That included transport and installation.
 
I just recently bought a AMSEC LP6036E. I really like it. It isnt as sturdy as some out there, but it will definitly deter your average meat head burgular. It has 34 gun capacity and weighs 782 lbs. Its bolted to the floor on all 4 corners. Paid $1350 installed where I wanted it from a local safe store.
 
Anyone have any dealing with patriot safes or the patriot series of Cannon safes?
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Revisiting this question as there didn't seem to be an answer. I am currently looking at the Patriot brand (not the cannon series).
 
CB900F & a1abdj,

Having read some of your previous threads and others, what Amsec safe would you recommend for a step up in burglary protection compared to the typical RSCs on the market? I'm ready to step up from my current / 1st RSC which I've now outgrown and want to buy the "final" safe for the next 20 years or more.

I'm considering the BF6030 with a dial lock which appears to be around ($1800?, 60"x30"x26") Have an alternative to suggest in the same general size or a bit taller perhaps?

Thanks.
 
Bp78;

The AMSEC BF series is indeed a step up from the typical RSC. To get better protection, you're into true safe territory, which is where I sell at. I'm a Graffunder dealer.

The Graffunder will without question offer better security than a BF AMSEC, but even the least expensive of them is a major step up in purchase price. However, you will get what you pay for. For instance, go to the Graffunder web site & review their photos of Graffunder's that have actually been through total loss fires. www.graffundersafes.com. The company has made changes to their safes that improve the fire protection beyond what's shown on the website.

900F
 
Revisiting this question as there didn't seem to be an answer. I am currently looking at the Patriot brand (not the cannon series).
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The Chinese safes that are "made in the US", just ask them.

I think they are dishonest, and wouldn't trust my security to those with questionable ethics.

what Amsec safe would you recommend for a step up in burglary protection compared to the typical RSCs on the market? I'm ready to step up from my current / 1st RSC which I've now outgrown and want to buy the "final" safe for the next 20 years or more.
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What CB900F said.
 
CB900F: I've been safe shopping (looking at the major brands in person and doing online research) for a few months now. I am strongly considering an AMSEC BF6636 for around $3000 but also thinking that perhaps I should bite the bullet and go for a Graffunder Bishop or Emperor 7232 or 7240. In some of your previous posts on this site you've suggested that a Graffunder (Bishop I'm assuming) is only a "little" more money than an AMSEC BF. Now you post that such a safe is a "major" step up in price. I haven't priced the Graffunders yet but how did "little" become "major"? Thanks.
 
The Chinese safes that are "made in the US", just ask them.

I think they are dishonest, and wouldn't trust my security to those with questionable ethics.
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Thanks, a1abdj, and I agree. FWIW- I called them to get some more information and the person who answered the phone (not Mike- the owner) was more interested in disputing my questions than he was helping me understand.

I'm in the same situation as it seems 90% of the rest of the posters are- trying to wade through and filter the large amount of (possibly misleading) information out there.

I appreciate yours, CB's and others frank advice.
 
Justindo;

I'd like to see exactly where that quote, "little", came from if you don't mind. My memory isn't perfect, and pulling one word out of context can lead to all sorts of erronious conclusions.

But, leaving that aside, let's look at the context in this thread. The originating post states that the poster has a small collection of firearms and is starting a family. Since he didn't state that he's independantly wealthy, I'm presuming that money just might be a large consideration in his purchase plans. Given that that's the case, I'll state that Graffunder's are not the usual first safe purchase, due to several reasons. Graffunder is not a mass marketer, relatively few people even know about them. Because of that, most first-time prospective purchaser's are not even aware that Graffunder is in the marketplace. Because Graffunder does build true safes, using A36 high tensile steel throughout, etc, etc, they cost more than RSC's. Depending on what RSC you compare them to, influences the ratio of course. In other words, if you're considering a Fort Knox Titan, the Graffunder isn't that big a step up. If you're considering a Stack-on whatever, it is indeed a major cost increase to go to the Graffunder.

900F
 
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