Gun safes

[dodgensince74]

I for one believe that any $600 to $1000 safe is better then having your guns in a plastic case in your closet or under your bed, and also much more secure then a pretty stained wood with a glass front gun cabinet sitting in the family room for all to see. A burglar that wants to get into your safe is going to do so, maybe not the first time but maybe the second time when he comes back with different tools and/or friends. Like I was told many times for as long as I can remember "a locked door or gate is only meant to keep the honest person honest", a true thief will not be hampered by any lock. JMO

 

[Maverick223]

I recently purchased a Diamond Back RSC and am pretty satisfied with the construction. It is imported but quality and value are good. Amongst others it can be purchased from a1abdj under his "Eagle" line.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Thermal protection is not rocket science. If you put more of, and denser, material between the heat source and what you want to protect, you get better protection. On the one hand we have sheet metal and gypsum wall board. On the other we have plate steel and concrete.

I don't have a problem making up my mind as to which provides the better insulation.

900F

 

[Maverick223]

Drywall is a very good insulator, but the cemetitious material (not really concrete but similar) is superior...it is nearly identical to the material used for fire-resistant coatings on exposed steel structural members. It does not provide much (if any) structural integrity, but should be fairly hard on a steel drill bit.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Gypsum wall board, take the paper off it & call it "fire rock", or dry wall sheet rock by any other name is a good flame barrier. However, it is not dense enough to be an effective heat sink. That's why you see so much interior space taken out of high-number fire rated RSC's by multiple layers of said gypsum. Since it's not very dense, it's got to be stacked deep. And that eats up a lot of the very valuable interior space you just paid for.

900F

 

[a1abdj]

If gypsum board is such a great flame barrier and insulator, why do buildings that are covered with it burn down?

I've never seen a concrete structure burn down to the ground.

 

[Maverick223]

I've never seen a concrete structure burn down to the ground.

I have seen many that have...and helped to design the repairs for a couple. One example is a reinforced concrete parking deck where a vehicle fire caused the concrete above to spall and eventually resulted in a failure and partial collapse. A better example is actually a modern steel building. Though they are steel framed they typically will employ shotcrete fireproofing (nearly identical to the insulator used in AmSec safes) on the steel structural members, many have burned to the ground. t is good stuff...but ironically a drywall covered wood structure will still last longer in a inferno...that is not to say that drywall is better than shotcrete because it isn't, just that it isn't a magical fireproof substance that can be destroyed by conflagration. The safest thing to do is to keep your combustibles in the safe.

 

[chiselchst]

Regarding drywall as a fire barrier, not only is it not a very good heat/fire barrier for a safe, but wouldn't there also be a concern that if the safe took any physical abuse or shock, the sheetrock could break & crumble, reducing it's already minimal effectiveness?

I realize the space where the sheetrock is packed is probably pretty tight, but I've heard claims it can still crumble if cracked or broken, and work it's way down leaving open areas?
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Mav223 Stated:

I have seen many that have...and helped to design the repairs for a couple. One example is a reinforced concrete parking deck where a vehicle fire caused the concrete above to spall and eventually resulted in a failure and partial collapse.

But isn't the temperature and heat intensity substantially higher in a case such as you described, especially when hydrocarbons are involved (auto fire)? I work in a large refinery, and in 1989 we had a big fire (burned for ~3 days), which resulted in a Nationwide change requiring the use of Nomex coveralls for anyone entering a refinery plant. There were very thick piping systems (operating at 3,000 PSI and 1,000°F) that were melted in to a mangled mess that looked like speghetti (a reactor also fell over). The heat was very intense to say the least. Point is, can the normal fuel source in a residential fire create such heat?

(FWIW, in the Bay Area, we recently had a gasoline tanker overturn & catch fire, totally destroying the concrete overpass above it. Totally destroyed. That fire must have been VERY Hot, LOL. Took several weeks to repair this major overpass...)
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In the refinery we I work, we have many steel structures (overhead pipeways) that have a fire protection coating on the steel structures(looks kind of like a soft stucco), I'm going to learn more about that stuff, just for my own education...

 

[Maverick223]

Point is, can the normal fuel source in a residential fire create such heat?

Can't say...depends upon what you have in your house, but I would say that the average house fire is quite a bit less than that of a refinery or fuel tanker. Average house fire can reach upwards of 1400 F.

The fire resistant coating that you refer to is likely a form of shotcrete that contains (depending upon manufacturer): Gypsum (primary constituent in drywall), mineral fibers, glass fibers, vermiculite, perlite, and portland cement. They are typically relatively soft and are a type of plaster not concrete. From looking at the AmSec specimen it seems that they use a portland cement based formula with increased entrained air.

 

[stchman]

I just purchased a RedHead 12/24 from Bass Pro. It was $750 with 10% off. It is VERY heavy and very thick. I am not saying a thief cannot get into it, it is going to take them quite a bit of time. I had a hell of a time getting it into the basement.

Overall I am satisfied with it, it has lots of room for guns and other valuables.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Actually, our fire department here in Great Falls informs us that fully involved house fires will typically hit temperatures of 1600 to 2000 degrees f. They've also stated that depending on weather conditions, read wind, and fuels, the temps can easily exceed 2000 degrees fahrenheit.

900F

 

[Maverick223]

I'll buy it...depends upon what you have in your house...petroleum distillates (in carpet, fabrics, paint, plastics, electronics, et cetera) are becoming more common and will certainly add fuel to the fire.

 

[Better Safe Than Sorry]

Our safe was made in the late 1950’s. The door is 6 inches thick and it grips all the way around the whole door. Still, it is only rated T20 so anyone with the right tools can get into it in 20 minutes so they say. Actually it is rated 20 to 30 depending on the tools I guess. The key to a safe is to make it invisible to a thief. They can't open what they can't find. Time is critical for a thief on the run. The longer they pillage the greater the chance of being caught. The primary reason we have a safe is because of fire. The problem with safes is that they are on display for any thief to easily find. Curious, they want to know what is inside. We leave a list of what is inside ours just in case it is found. Our money is in a bank not a safe. Its mostly paper, collectibles, pictures, and things we would not want to lose in a fire. Our safe weighs a ton or more so its not going anywhere fast. Interestingly, it takes me four tries to get the doors to open and I know the combination. One of the reasons we bought our safe was because of the way the doors interlock all the way around when closed. It feels like it is loaded with cement or something really heavy. My point here is not to overlook some of the old safes that were built back in the 50's and 60's. They seem to have a lot more metal than the pretty new ones. Since ours was made invisible, the outside did not have to be pretty. The inside though is all lined with a think felt and looks really nice. We had a Liberty safe in our previous home and when I saw how easily they could be pried open, I just had to look elsewhere. One dealer we talked to had a room full of safes that were broken into so we could see which one's held up and why. It was a real education that we greatly appreciated. We chose an older safe because we thought it was made better than new safes made today. The best safe you can buy is one that can be made invisible. Trust me ours is truly invisible.

 

[Keizer]

If gypsum board is such a great flame barrier and insulator, why do buildings that are covered with it burn down?

Some house fires start inside the walls from electrical issues. Walls are framed with wood typically. The wood burns up, and the gypsum board crumbles since the support framework is no longer there.

 

[a1abdj]

Some house fires start inside the walls from electrical issues. Walls are framed with wood typically. The wood burns up, and the gypsum board crumbles since the support framework is no longer there.

I was being facetious

Still, it is only rated T20 so anyone with the right tools can get into it in 20 minutes so they say. Actually it is rated 20 to 30 depending on the tools I guess.

You're pretty close. Your safe does not have a tool rating like a burglary rated safe would have. The T stands for tamper. It is very similar to the rating modern day gun safes have. The RSC rating found on most gun safes is for a period of 5 minutes using small hand tools. Your tamper rating is for the same tools, but for a period of 20 minutes.

Interestingly, it takes me four tries to get the doors to open and I know the combination.

If you are 100% sure that you are dialing the combination properly, you may want to have that looked at. Some locks are more accurate than others with anywhere from +/- 1/2 a number up to +/- 2 numbers. Some older locks can wear to where the number you are dialing "shifts", which combined with the accuracy of the lock will make opening difficult.

This is easy to fix if this is the case. If the lock is worn too much, you can also usually retrofit to a modern lock without much of a hassle.