Gun safes

[winston smith]

You have little chance of a fire and less chance of a theft. Get one anyway.

The best safes are ones that accomodate your guns, and a few accessories/ammo.

Sturdy safes are made of thicker than average steel; Liberty safes are widely available, etc.

Browning has the best interiors; esp. if you have many rifles you want easy access to. Their Medalion model is my favorite, but I own a Liberty; it was easier to get.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Now here's a recent quote: "Frankly I get more than a little tired of reading that it only takes a screw driver and hammer to get into a RSC.
Try it sometimes guys before saying such things."

Actually Heeler, it's Underwriter Laboratories that says that. And they do it, repeatedly. They have a website, I'd suggest going to it if you're sceptical, wade through the verbiage, and then decide if you know better than they do.

It's their standard, not mine, I just pass on the information.

900F

 

[heeler]

CB900f,I never said i know better than the UL Techs but i do know they are saying that an RSC can hold out to these minimums they have established within a certain parameter using certain hand tools.
Perhaps they do get into the lowest of the low RSC using a screw driver and hammer in under 5 minutes guy but not only am I sceptical of it on a very large number of RSC's I have let us say a bit of experience with steel and demolition and it is not so easy to get through it using an 18 inch screw driver and three pound hammer.
What too many are doing here is lumping a low class RSC into the same performance class of high end RSC and saying they are the same and the magical number of "5 minutes" has become the absolute of certain people.
I mean it's as if no matter how the safe is built if it has RSC stamped on it it's just going to roll over to that screw driver and hammer in 5 minutes or less and that just is not so.
It is extremely doubtful that you are going to take the above mentioned tools and get inside a locked RSC such as the Amsec BF,or a 3/16th of an inch bodied gun safe with at least a 1/4 inch plate steel door made by most other manufacturers.
In fact in the infamous you tube film of those two guys prying their way into that limp Liberty safe in a minute and half have every advantage going for them.
Namely the safe is laying on it's back and these guys are using huge multi foot long pry bars and even that low class RSC that has absolutely no plate steel in it's door would have been a much harder job with an 18 inch screw driver and a three pound hammer to enter into it in the famed "5 minutes".
Maybe you could do it.
Maybe.

 

[Acera]

heeler, I think you are missing something. You might have this backward.

UL makes the determination based on testing, not what the mfg. says.

Most manufacturers call their product safes, it is UL that certifies what it really is with their testing program, and some get the RSC label instead.

Check out their website, they try to be as unbiased and realistic as possible with their testing methods.


So even a high end RSC, is still a RSC because it failed to meet the standards to be considered a safe. (Ease of break in is one criteria) It may appear to your observation to be tough, but that is what the products manufacturer wants you to believe so you buy their product.

I looked at a number of these things yesterday, and it is hard to tell them apart from a casual glance, but the UL label is the best way to be sure. A few of the RSCs were priced higher than comparable sized safes, it depends on the maker.

 

[heeler]

I am not missing anything.
And i understand the UL testing.
All i am trying to point out is that even though an RSC is not a true safe i am wise enough to know that it is extremely unlikely that using a screw driver of 18 inches in length and a 3 pound hammer you are going to get into a higher end rsc designated unit in five minutes.
In other words there are many gun safes that fall under the terminolgy of RSC but far exceeds that standard.
But it does not fall into the category of true safe because it lacks a 1/16th of an inch less wall thickness or perhaps close to that in door thickness.

I tell you what.
I would LOVE to see someone break into an Amsec BF,Ft.Knox Titan,Browning Platinum,Sturdy Safe with it's 7 gauge body and 5/16th door etc. using the defined tools above and do it in "5 minutes".
Yea these are RSC's but they far exceed a 12 gauge gun safe with a 12 gauge door.
But again i do acknoledge they are not true safes but they are one Hell of a lot better than your typical low end RSC gun safe.
Let's use some common sense here.
These types of gun safes are not wet paper bags.

 

[Acera]

If they were good, they would not have gotten the RSC label.

If they could not be broken into within the parameters of the test, they would not have gotten the RSC label.

Believe what you want, the testing is there.


The RSC label is not a good thing, it means second tier, or worse:banghead:

 

[a1abdj]

Although not common, I know guys that can get into any safe using a standard group 2 lock (almost every gun safe made, and the vast majority of other safes on the commercial market) in less than 5 minutes using no tools.

 

[heeler]

Acera do you believe that every UL rated gun safe could only survive the minumum 5 minutes??
I cant believe someone would think a 12 gauge RSC gun safe with a 12 gauge door is the equal of a like labled RSC that is built with a 3/16th body and a 3/8 or 1/2 plate door.
And that no matter what these premium made RSC's can only hold back some Chinese made 18 inch screw driver and hammer for mere minutes.

A1,true enough but these kind of people are not likely to be coming to our homes to break in in the first place.
Since we are getting close to straining gnats i might as well mention i can get into a lot of steel made vessels with explosives in less than a few seconds.
But that's not what we are talking about exactly .
We are talking about garage quality hand tools that these creeps use when they are pillaging your home and come across your gun safe.
I would feel much better with a tl-30 rated safe than an RSC branded unit but would feel good if my lowly RSC was a premium unit rather than your typical sub 1K 12 gauge gun safe.
Again not all RSC are the same as some far exceed the RSC designation but cannot be called real safe because of their steel minimums.

 

[Acera]

No heeler, I do believe that every RSC labeled cabinet can be broken into with the simple tools and limited time frame set forth in their testing procedure.

I also believe that a UL listed safe of meets or exceeds the standards set forth to be called a safe by the UL, which by default is tougher than those standards for a RSC.

I cant believe someone would think a 12 gauge RSC gun safe with a 12 gauge door is the equal of a like labled RSC that is built with a 3/16th body and a 3/8 or 1/2 plate door.

If that RSC was tested and labeled, then it failed the testing. Might not have been as quick, but within the time constraints.

 

[heeler]

Are you saying it eventually failed or are you saying it failed in under five minutes?
My understanding is the safe has to hold out for a minimum of five minutes using a defined set of tools which some are the three pound hammer and pry tool not exceeding 18 inches.
I dont think you are getting into one of the premium gun safes i mentioned with those two hand tools in five minutes are anything close to that.

Power tools,sledge hammers and the such well yea.

 

[stchman]

I would like to see someone break into that safe in 5 minutes with only a screwdriver and a hammer.

While I am sure that safe is not the greatest on earth, but it will stop an average thief.

Get it and bolt it to a concrete floor.

 

[Winston_Smith]

I would like to see someone break into that safe in 5 minutes with only a screwdriver and a hammer.

Buy a "fire proof safe" from Walmart and give it a try. The small ones are under $100.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

In my area, Stack-On's seem to have a good blend of price ($500) and capacity (16 rifles). My biggest concern is to be avoid being shot by my own firearms. As best I can tell from how it's built, that is unlikely to happen. I have insurance that can replace that conetents in the safe.

 

[jim357]

As far as getting into the safe by manipulating the lock - a few years ago I had the chance to purchase a very nice safe, but it was locked and the combination was unknown. I live in los angeles and must have called 50 safe places and only one of them said that he may be able to open it this way. He said that he would try it with no guarantee. All of the rest wanted to drill holes in the safe. I passed on the purchase. I think these fellows are very few and far between. By the way, I have a friend who now has a safe without the combination and if one of these fellows is in Los Angeles and willing to open it without drilling any holes, I have a customer for him.

Also as far as the RSC rating. As I understand it the safe is not given this rating because it failed a higher rating. The manufacturer applies for this rating. There are also some safes, I can never spell the name but it is something like Graff(something) that has no UL rating at all. But it looks like a good safe.

I also understand that UL does not say what is a safe and what is not a safe. UL will test for a fee and give or not give a rating. These ratings run from RSC to TXTL-60X6. To call this box an rsc or RSC is confusing. RSC is a UL rating for a safe and a safe is, according to the discionary, a metal box with a lock. There is a write up on the internet that mixes up RSC with rsc with safe and is very unclear. I guess that I am uncomfortable with saying that such and such metal box is not a real safe it is a rsc. To me that is mixing apples and oranges.

 

[heeler]

Winston...Yes those cheapo fire safes from Walmart are very easy to get into.
However I was not speaking of those units but rather a far more robust premium RSC such as thje Amec BF series as well as many others that are built out of 3/16 of an inch steel bodies with plate steel doors.
Which was my point to begin with which was not all RSC's are built the same as some are far more secure than others.

Perhaps one day when i win the lottery i can buy some of these units and fly some of you guys out to try and break into them with a screw driver and hammer.
Should be a lot of fun seeing a bunch of guys wear themselves completely out.

 

[a1abdj]

My understanding is the safe has to hold out for a minimum of five minutes using a defined set of tools which some are the three pound hammer and pry tool not exceeding 18 inches.

I dont think you are getting into one of the premium gun safes i mentioned with those two hand tools in five minutes are anything close to that.

You are correct. The test is a minimum set of standards, and any safe that survives 5 minutes is awarded the label regardless of how long it would actually take to open it.

The RSC label is actually a reincarnation of an older set of standards called tamper ratings. although the tamper rating system used longer periods of time. If you run across one of these safes, the tag may say something along the lines of T-20, which was a test four times as long as the RSC test.

Perhaps one day when i win the lottery i can buy some of these units and fly some of you guys out to try and break into them with a screw driver and hammer.
Should be a lot of fun seeing a bunch of guys wear themselves completely out.

This is exactly my issue with the RSC label. You are correct in that most of these safes will keep somebody with a small hammer and long screwdriver out for a very long time. They will also keep out people with spoons and rubber bands, but they don't actually test the safe against burglars using spoons and rubber bands.

The truth of the matter is that burglars don't use spoons and rubber bands when trying to break into safes. They also don't use small hammers and screwdrivers.

 

[heeler]

My experience with home breakins,a fact that has happened to me three times in 30 years at the very same house has been they use some sort of prying device to get your door open.
In fact one of the burglaries occurred in 1985 and the smucks left behind on my ransacked dresser drawer a ten inch long wrecking bar that they used to pry open my front door.
These kind of guys dont come prepared for something like a reasonably stout gun safe...The problem is once they know about it you have to worry are they coming back.

 

[lebowski]

No heeler, I do believe that every RSC labeled cabinet can be broken into with the simple tools and limited time frame set forth in their testing procedure.

I also believe that a UL listed safe of meets or exceeds the standards set forth to be called a safe by the UL, which by default is tougher than those standards for a RSC.




If that RSC was tested and labeled, then it failed the testing. Might not have been as quick, but within the time constraints.

I think you are misunderstanding the definition of an RSC. If it lasts more than 5 minutes, it's an RSC, then the test stops. UL doesn't distinguish anything greater until you get all the way up to TL-15, which is a big difference from the test for an RSC. Heeler's point was that the term "RSC" covers a very wide range, and not all RSCs are necessarily equal just because they carry the same RSC designation.

My understanding is that under general industry lingo a "safe" is something made of .25" or thicker plate steel body and .5" or thicker plate steel door.

The liberty centurian featured in the video you posted earlier is not a safe, hence your video does not illustrate the difference between a safe and an RSC, as you claimed.

 

[stchman]

Lets get the $100 safes aside. The OP was not talking about a gun locker.

Do you think you could break into a $500 gun safe in 5 minutes with a screwdriver and hammer only?

 

[Uncle Mike]

Well, whatever you say...my opinion...Do not own a Liberty safe. I have had two, both Presidential and both where pieces of poopy, and Liberty's customer service sux.

I have seen some shoddy fabrication before but these took the prize!

The one safe was 3/8" out of square, diagonal across the outside. When I questioned Liberty about this, they said it was within tolerance!

The number two safe...yup, out of square again, 1/4" this time so as to have the door drag terribly upon opening or closing. The fire-seal strip would be torn out everytime you opened the door.

Called Liberty...we will send a guy to look at it...guy arrives, says he'll fix it, he beats on one of the door hinges for a while... no change...he will make a report...have not heard for him or that sorry a33 Liberty company yet.

Next try... our corporate lawyer!

Oh yea... safe number two also looks like a square dance took place on the side of it while the paint was still wet!

 

[chiselchst]

IMHO,

Anyone who dues their due deligence, will select a Sturdy Safe. Especialy those that desire fire resistance.

Many have "fire prevention" designed in (fireboard), and some have real fire retardard materials.

I've done my research, and Sturdy Safe was my obvious choice. And their priced reasonably too...

 

[a1abdj]

Anyone who dues their due deligence, will select a Sturdy Safe. Especialy those that desire fire resistance.

Many have "fire prevention" designed in (fireboard), and some have real fire retardard materials.

I say this will all due respect, but in order to do your due diligence, you must look outside the realm of gun safes.

Those who desire true fire resistance purchase safes that have been tested by UL or similar foreign agencies. Safes meeting these testing standards have been around for many, many years. Long before somebody even came up with the idea for a gun safe. None of these safes (that I'm aware of) use the same materials used by Sturdy.

For hundreds of years, safes have used "concrete" types of fill in order to achieve their fire ratings (real ratings, not those from independents). There are only two gun safe companies who build gun safes in the same fashion, and Sturdy isn't one of them.

The problem in the gun safe business is that everybody wants to use insulations designed for every use other than a safe. These insulations may have heat resistant properties, but are engineered for other uses. If these insulations were so great for the use in safes, they would surely be used on the commercial safe market.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Take the above to the bank, it's good currency.

900F

 

[chiselchst]

a1abdj

For hundreds of years, safes have used "concrete" types of fill in order to achieve their fire ratings (real ratings, not those from independents). There are only two gun safe companies who build gun safes in the same fashion, and Sturdy isn't one of them.

You're right. And my due diligence was only research online. I don't have any practical experience. I'd like to have a cement lined or professional grade fire-safe, but both the price & weight would not allow it.

I know many folks are happy with a fiber-board or fire resistant sheetrock type fire protection, but I do not like those. According to Sturdy, they have actually tested thier safes working with the FD arson squad, installing their safes prior to intentional home full burn downs to develop the fire protection. I also like their simplicity, and no frills.

FWIW, I work in a large refinery, and we use ceramic wool on a lot of very hot equipment. And I like tha fact it can't break and settle in the safe without a person knowing it happened.

Thanks...

 

[chiselchst]

OP Asked:

Also how long are they actually fireproof? Is the rating on them usually correct?

I understand there are some ratings not as accurate as others? Can someone please clarify? It's lines like these that add to the confusion:
It is important to note that products which are "tested to UL standards" have not necessarily met or exceeded those standards, and may have actually failed the test.

OP:
I think the safe you mentioned has 2-sheetrock type X layers, not the best at fire protection? Thoughts?