Gun sale question

[Girodin]

I live in Utah and I am selling some of my guns (I will be starting law school next year and I am trying to start saving some funds for that). I have a guy who is interested in some of the rifles I am selling. He wants to do a FTF sale. He is living in Utah right now but not a resident. Is it legal for me to sell to him? He is (to the best of my knowledge) not a felon and is willing to show ID to show his age.

Is there any thing specific I should do in a sale like this (given that it is otherwise legal)?

 

[Girodin]

BTW I have tried to research this and from the research I have done it seems it is illegal but any confirmation would be appreciated. Thank.

 

[Art Eatman]

FTF in thsi context is face-to-face.

 

[Solo Flyer]

Be careful on this.See these 2 ATF rules:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



B11) What constitutes residency in a State? [Back]

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Is the potential buyer in the Armed Forces and stationed in Utah?

 

[jasonguerard]

Slightly off topic....
Make sure you make out and get signed a bill of sale incase the gun goes out and does something you've taught it not to do. I know a guy that a piece of paper with a serial # and 2 signatures kept out of jail about 2 years ago.
Hope law school goes well, we ned more lawers on the RKBA side.

 

[bigjohnson]

The statement that "Transfer of long-guns between private parties is lawful. No resident (sic) requirements." is simply not true. The interstate transfer of ANY firearm (other than an antique) by non-licensees is a violation of the gun control act of 1968, and is a felony. An out-of-state resident can buy a long gun from a dealer or a collector, but not from a person who does not have an FFL. If he buys from a dealer, he can buy at the dealer's licensed premises or at a gun show. If he buys from a collector, the sale must take place at the collector's licensed premises.

Having said all that, in Girodin's case it appears that he can lawfully sell to his friend. According to the original post, his friend "lives in Utah, but is not a resident". I would take that to mean that Girodin's friend is not a LEGAL resident of Utah, but is a TEMPORARY resident. According to the BATF, a person can be a LEGAL resident of one state and a TEMPORARY resident of another. A perfect example of this would be a college student who lives in California and goes to school in Utah. During the time he is in school and residing in Utah for the purpose of attending college, he is a TEMPORARY resident of Utah, and is legally able to buy a firearm there. Another example would be a member of the Armed Forces who is a resident of one state but is stationed in another. As long as he has Permanent Change of Station (PCS) orders showing his assignment in that state, he is a TEMPORARY resident there, and can legally buy a firearm there. Since he is a legal resident of his home state, he can legally buy a gun there, also.

 

[TX1911fan]

bigjohnson, I have no reason to dispute you, other than my friend who is a permanent resident of Texas and a temporary resident of Utah (going to school) was just denied a gun purchase in Utah by a dealer because he does not live in Utah. Is it different if it is face to face, was it because he was purchasing a handgun, or was the dealer just too anal?

 

[NavyLCDR]

TX1911fan,

The dealer was just probably being anal. For some reason, FFL's want to see a photo ID from the state in which the buyer is claiming residence. This is not a federal requirement. The federal requirement for FFL's is that the buyer be able to prove by a combination of documents, one of which must be a government photo id, their identity and their state of residence.

For instance, your friend could show his Texas driver's license and a utility bill or rental agreement for a residence in Utah and be legal to purchase in Utah. A Utah school ID + Texas driver's license might work as well, but most FFLs won't accept that.

You might want to look up Utah statutes, but I believe it is correct that no paperwork is required for a face-to-face sale in Utah and if you know for a fact that your friend currently resides in Utah, even temporary to go to school, it is legal to sell to him.

You can look up state of residence:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/27cfr478.11.htm

your friend is a resident of Utah during the time they are present there to go to school. There is a clarification somewhere here on the highroad where a post was made of a Federal ruling (maybe another CFR) that specifically stated that students were residents of the state they were living in during the time they were going to school (for the purpose of firearms purchases).

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The BATFE FAQ specifically addresses dual residency. In that FAQ, they essentially say that a person is a resident of a state if that's where they are living. Their example deals with people who own a vacation home in a second state, but it would seem that with students living at the school for nine months out of the year, that's long enough to constitute residency and they should be able to purchase firearms in that state while they are "residing" in it.

The issue is how to prove residency. Obtaining a driver's license might be a good step. If renting an apartment, copies of utility bills with a local address might suffice. That would not work, of course, if the student lives in a dormitory on campus.

 

[bigjohnson]

We had this very question come up this week in the gun store where I work. A guy came in who lives in Florida for half the year and Virginia the other half year. Under ATF rules, we can sell him a handgun based on his dual residency status. Under Virginia law, however, in order for him to purchase a handgun, he must have an ID issued by a Virginia state agency that shows his Virginia address on it. The guy has a Florida drivers license. He went to the Virginia DMV to get a Virginia ID, but under the terms of the federal "Real ID" act, you can't have DMV-issued documents from two different states, so the Virginia DMV told him he would have to surrender his Florida drivers license in order to get the Virginia ID card. Of course that was a no-deal, so the guy can't buy the handgun even though he qualifies under federal law.
Just to throw some more mud in the game, the guy has a Coast Guard Master's license that shows his Virginia address. But that's not good enough, because the Virginia State Police say that the "primary ID" must be issued by an agency of the state of Virginia.

 

[Girodin]

Thanks for the various info provided. I have one followup question regarding the following:

Make sure you make out and get signed a bill of sale incase the gun goes out and does something you've taught it not to do. I know a guy that a piece of paper with a serial # and 2 signatures kept out of jail about 2 years ago.
Hope law school goes well, we ned more lawers on the RKBA side.

Whate percisely ought to be on a bill of sale. I had already figured this was a prudent measure. What exactly needs to be on it? I had in mind some sort of statement that the gun was being sold by party A to party B , the serial # of the gun, and signatures of both parties. Is there anything else I should include. A short exemplar of one would be greatly appreiated.

 

[mulletguter]

When I sell a gun FTF in Florida I make 2 recites with my name CWL# driver and Lic #
and the buyers CWL# and driver Lic #. One is for me one is for the buyer

Make. Model, Cal. and SN

Although it is not illegal in FL to sell FTF to someone without a CWL I won’t. do it unless I personally know the buyer and even then I get a bill of sale

 

[NavyLCDR]

When I made out a bill of sale, I did two parts:

I, (name of buyer), did purchase on this date one Make, Model, Caliber, Serial # from (name of seller) for the purchase price of $xxxxx. Signed, dated by buyer. I keep that copy.

I, (name of seller), did receive on this date from (name of buyer), $xxxxx for the sale of one Make, Model, Caliber, Serial #. Signed, dated by seller. I give that one to the buyer.

You have a receipt for your gun, he has a receipt for his money. I only ask to see a photo ID and preferrably proof of state residence, but don't record any of that info. I've also done the two-part bill of sale when I have bought a gun FTF.

The bill of sale is a legal document as long as it is signed and dated, it doesn't matter if it is typed, notarized or not, or handwritten on a napkin.

 

[Girodin]

Okay, thanks.

 

[EOD Guy]

bigjohnson, I have no reason to dispute you, other than my friend who is a permanent resident of Texas and a temporary resident of Utah (going to school) was just denied a gun purchase in Utah by a dealer because he does not live in Utah. Is it different if it is face to face, was it because he was purchasing a handgun, or was the dealer just too anal?

It was because it was a handgun. Handguns can only be transferred in one's state of residence.

 

[1 old 0311]

White out a bill of sale with the seriel numbers, and DON'T DON'T DON'T do the trade in your home. I meet at Wal Mart, Krogers, or Home Depot parking lots.