Gun Show Accidental Discharge
- Thread starter jmar
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Ignition Override
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People almost Never Try to check a chamber and magazine-if not zip tied-at about twenty gun shows I've attended.
They assume that at a show, the gun has already been checked.
With zip ties, how can it be checked without cutting the plastic?
They assume that at a show, the gun has already been checked.
With zip ties, how can it be checked without cutting the plastic?
Jackal
Member
All shows should require zip ties. Not unlike Japan requiring swords to be peace tied.
X-Rap
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To add to the above, who do some of you think ties the guns in the first place?
I used to participate in a number of shows annually prior to MBC's and there were never safety officers who fanned out and checked all vendors.
You will also find a large number of people who for one reason or another don't want the condition of each gun checked by every lookie loo passing by.
I've long been concerned with sabotage of guns in shops as well as at gunshows as well as suicide or robbery with loaded magazines or ammo brought in.
I used to participate in a number of shows annually prior to MBC's and there were never safety officers who fanned out and checked all vendors.
You will also find a large number of people who for one reason or another don't want the condition of each gun checked by every lookie loo passing by.
I've long been concerned with sabotage of guns in shops as well as at gunshows as well as suicide or robbery with loaded magazines or ammo brought in.
Jim Watson
Member
I was present when a gunshow patron was shot, much like the OP.
There were rumors that an anti had sabotaged the show by loading various guns, the same brand and load of shotgun shell having turned up on different tables. But nothing was ever proven.
There were rumors that an anti had sabotaged the show by loading various guns, the same brand and load of shotgun shell having turned up on different tables. But nothing was ever proven.
It isn't a negligent discharge if the people involved don't have the skills or knowledge to properly inspect and handle a firearm.
There is no standard of skills or knowledge to buy, own or handle a firearm. We don't enforce much of anything within our community, and we abhor anything being imposed externally by law.
I have also seen a man shot at a gun show. I have been handed a loaded gun by a friend who didn't say anything about it. I have had a hot range called by an RO while I was still downrange stapling a target. I have witnessed one RO allow another RO to fire a round during "unload and show clear" portion of an IDPA match. My neighbor was hunting with a rifle that had the hammer resting on live round. And I don't spend an incredible amount of time at ranges or gun shows.
Way too many gun owners are complete idiots, or simply do not understand the mechanics of guns enough to be considered competent. They are not to be trusted.
There is no standard of skills or knowledge to buy, own or handle a firearm. We don't enforce much of anything within our community, and we abhor anything being imposed externally by law.
I have also seen a man shot at a gun show. I have been handed a loaded gun by a friend who didn't say anything about it. I have had a hot range called by an RO while I was still downrange stapling a target. I have witnessed one RO allow another RO to fire a round during "unload and show clear" portion of an IDPA match. My neighbor was hunting with a rifle that had the hammer resting on live round. And I don't spend an incredible amount of time at ranges or gun shows.
Way too many gun owners are complete idiots, or simply do not understand the mechanics of guns enough to be considered competent. They are not to be trusted.
browningguy
Member
Just remember folks, half the people you see every day are below average in intelligence.
It's been a while since I was last at a gun show, but I remember one I attended in Arkansas some years ago required a plastic cable tie be placed on every gun so as to ensure the bolt was open or the cylinder was not closed. The tie could be cut off for a customer to inspect the gun provided a new one was attached immediately afterwards. The sellers wouldn't cut off the tie for anyone who wasn't a serious customer, so it seemed to cut down a lot on people who had no intention of buying. The last gun show I was at was in Ft. Worth and didn't require cable ties on the guns which seemed to me to be inviting trouble.
And nearly everyone you see believe they are above average.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
You'd think so, but it was fairly recently that a gun counter clerk got slightly annoyed at me for insisting he open the action before handing the gun over to me. Just a smirk, as if "This idiot thinks we'd keep a loaded gun in the display counter."
I was trained long ago to manually and visually inspect, with my own baby blue eyeballs, every gun, every time I handled it, and to open the action as a courtesy to the other party before handing a gun over.
Every gun is always loaded.
Terry, 230RN
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I don't ask the clerk to open the action. I do it myself.
That's a good policy, but it is safer to have the gun cleared before it is passed from one person to the next.
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
Once is too much. Sad, very sad.
maxxhavoc
Member
And even if I watch someone check it before handing it to me, I check it again anyway. Habits can be a good thing.
entropy
Member
I used to have a recurring dream when I worked at a gun shop of someone coming in, asking to look at a semi-auto pistol, then slamming their own mag in and popping me in the gut. Fortunately, in the dream it was a Baby Browning and the .25 rounds just pissed me off, and I grabbed a shotgun off the rack and beat the guy bloody with it...
I was trained long ago to manually and visually inspect, with my own baby blue eyeballs, every gun, every time I handled it, and to open the action as a courtesy to the other party before handing a gun over.
As it should be, 230RN. One of my sons does it every time, the other has to be reminded...
VThillman
Member
What constitutes 'zip-tied' at a show? can the action be cleared while it is zip-tied?
Usually it means that the zip ties runs through the barrel and chamber making it obvious the chamber is empty and preventing the action from closing.
But it is sometimes done through the magwell, or around the grip and under the hammer.
X-Rap
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- Sep 23, 2006
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Like there is only hand guns at gun shows.
There are many configurations and was to manipulate the ties. In short, depending on ties is not much better than having faith in some sort of government safety training.
RunninLate
Member
About 15 years ago I was doing the gun transfers for the 3 day holding period that Savannah required. The table next to me was selling SKS and AKs and when some guy was pointing the gun at the ceiling he pulled the trigger and a round was in the chamber. It was suppose to be a new gun. The vendor was packed up and out of there with in 15 minutes after the shot. And yes you could see a hole in the roof.
What's the problem? I didn't list every possible way?
Done correctly you aren't "depending on a zip tie". The zip tie makes it obviously impossible to fire the gun, which you can see just looking at it.
scaatylobo
Member
Been going to gun shows for at least 4 DECADES.
The only ND that has happened was a man that shot himself and died while trying to UNLOAD his CCW in his car.
So since I live in a very tough state [ NY ] and I have been around tens of thousands at gun shows,my take is very different.
And HELL YES, we always check any gun that is handed to us,and then hand it back with an OPEN CHAMBER.
And yes, I do CCW at gun shows.
The only ND that has happened was a man that shot himself and died while trying to UNLOAD his CCW in his car.
So since I live in a very tough state [ NY ] and I have been around tens of thousands at gun shows,my take is very different.
And HELL YES, we always check any gun that is handed to us,and then hand it back with an OPEN CHAMBER.
And yes, I do CCW at gun shows.
jcwit
member
All the rules are good and important, but in the end we are human and not God's, being so we are and always will be imperfect.
CapnMac
Member
Down in central Texas was this old goober. All the small-show dealers knew to be on the lookout for ol' Goober. Part expectation, part dread in equal portion.
See, Goober was old, stubborn, and the better part of stone deaf. His one and only shootin' iron was, as he described it, a "dirty dirty." Except that it wasn't, it was a .32-40 or some such oddball. He'd been to every LGS in 6 counties trying to find "real" 30-30 "an' not no Chy-nee gubmint fake dirty-dirty."
He was famous for always having loose rounds in his pocket, and leaving them randomly in various weapons at shows, trying to find an arm to drag to the ammo table to find that "real" dirty-dirty he needed. Zip ties, alarms, they didn't bother Goober much (other than they'd be fubar after he was done with them. Oh, and if he found a gun the ammo fit, he'd up and borry it over to the ammo tables to show those ig'rant so-and-sos what's what and give him the mislabeled box he was looking for (they were always mislabeled, ig'rant Chy-knee box makers what dint kno 'Murican ammo fer nuttin...).
The goobers are out here; thus, we few, we vigilant few, must ever on our toes be.
See, Goober was old, stubborn, and the better part of stone deaf. His one and only shootin' iron was, as he described it, a "dirty dirty." Except that it wasn't, it was a .32-40 or some such oddball. He'd been to every LGS in 6 counties trying to find "real" 30-30 "an' not no Chy-nee gubmint fake dirty-dirty."
He was famous for always having loose rounds in his pocket, and leaving them randomly in various weapons at shows, trying to find an arm to drag to the ammo table to find that "real" dirty-dirty he needed. Zip ties, alarms, they didn't bother Goober much (other than they'd be fubar after he was done with them. Oh, and if he found a gun the ammo fit, he'd up and borry it over to the ammo tables to show those ig'rant so-and-sos what's what and give him the mislabeled box he was looking for (they were always mislabeled, ig'rant Chy-knee box makers what dint kno 'Murican ammo fer nuttin...).
The goobers are out here; thus, we few, we vigilant few, must ever on our toes be.
browningguy, this post has nothing to do with the intelligence of the populace. it has to do with the lack of basic gun handling skills. the most intelligent person in the world can have an nd (negligent discharge) if that person is ignorant of these basic skills.
i think we shooters as a group should invest more time and effort into teaching these basic gun handling skills to as many people as possible. but, it is much easier to just put up a sign with rules.
murf
i think we shooters as a group should invest more time and effort into teaching these basic gun handling skills to as many people as possible. but, it is much easier to just put up a sign with rules.
murf
GBExpat
Member
or ... in the case of a firearms-experienced person, is at that moment suffering from a normal, periodic reduction of respect for the inherent danger of that tool if mishandled.
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