Gun Shows and Background Checks

[RIDE]

... Ok another newbie question...

I'm going to a gun show here in Kansas next weekend.

If I purchase a handgun or (more likely) a rifle from a vendor there, do they do the background checks right there at the show, or is it like a FTF, give the cash, take the rifle/handgun???

I'm not at all worried about getting through the background check (I am squeaky clean)... In fact I have bought 2 guns in the last 2 months from "brick & mortar" retailers without any problems on the NICS...

BUT.. I kind of feel like too many of my firearms have been purchased through the NICS... Is this paranoid thinking??? Does it matter???

Thanks!

 

[budney]

It'll depend on your state laws. Here is PA, anything I buy from an FFL must go through NICS (and I think that applies everywhere in the US). By state law, any handgun I buy from anyone must be transferred by an FFL who must perform the NICS check.

In PA I can buy long-guns from private owners without going through NICS, but not handguns.

--Len.

 

[El Tejon]

RIDE, who are you going to purchase the firearm from? Does Kansas have a statute specific to pistols?

ATFE registers the persons who have or likely have firearms in addition to registering the guns they can. If you buy a gun, order ammo, order parts, order magazines, order accessories, ATFE knows about you and you are on the list in West Virginia.

 

[budney]

[blockquote]ATFE registers the persons who have or likely have firearms in addition to registering the guns they can.
[/blockquote]
That's true; I certainly assume I'm in whatever databases the government keeps of "gun owners." However, it's nice to think that nobody out there has an exact inventory on me.

Just think--FOIA + Internet = online gun catalog for burglars.

--Len.

 

[RIDE]

I'm thinking of buying a gun from a dealer/vendor at the show...

I believe (though, I'm not sure) that a purchase from the vendor will need to go through NICS... and a purchase from "Joe" citizen is just cash and carry with no checks.


Are most of your firearms in the NICS database???

I'd like mine not to be, but it's nearly impossible to find exactly what I want to buy in the local classified ads. :banghead:

 

[Werewolf]

ATFE registers the persons who have or likely have firearms in addition to registering the guns they can. If you buy a gun, order ammo, order parts, order magazines, order accessories, ATFE knows about you and you are on the list in West Virginia

Can you expound on this please for I am not aware of any legal authority the ATFE has to collect that information thru any means other than the Form 4473 and they're not supposed to keep that.

That they do is a possibility but is there any proof that they collect and retain the information noted in the quote above? If so I'd like to see it.

 

[El Tejon]

Werewolf, yes, the ATF has testified in front of Congress that they are doing this. Further, ATF has bragged about doing this on national television.

Maybe 13 years ago there was a program called Day 1. On it in 1993 ATF boasted that they were creating a central database of gun owners.

Here's an old article from Neal Knox's Firearms Coalition:

************************************************

BATF's At It Again
By NEAL KNOX
WASHINGTON, D.C. (March 1) -- Last spring BATF Special Agent
Pat Hynes gave ABC Day 1 host Forrest Sawyer a tour of their new
West Virginia records center. "Right now there's 20 million (out
of business gun dealer) records here," he said. "We've already
computerized 60 million."

That exchange, reported in my June 20, 1994 Shotgun News
column, set off alarm bells all across the country for Sec. 926 of
the 1986-amended Gun Control Act prohibits "records required to be
maintained under this chapter or any portion of the
contents of such records, (being) recorded at or transferred to a
(U.S. or State) facility ... nor that any system of registration of
firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or
dispositions be established."

Further, since 1978, when BATF and the Carter White House
attempted to create a national gun registration by issuing new
regulations, the Treasury appropriations bill has declared: "That
no funds appropriated herein shall be available for ... expenses in
connection with consolidating or centralizing .. the records, or
any portion thereof, of acquisition and disposition of
firearms maintained by Federal firearms licensees."

As the then-Director of NRA ILA, I helped write that
language and pointed out to the late Chairman of the Treasury
Appropriations Subcommittee, Tom Steed (D-Okla.), that since BATF
had "found" the $4.2 million first-year cost in their existing
budget, for an unauthorized program that ignored 15 or so
Congressional rejections of gun registration laws, they obviously
didn't need that money.

Mr. Tom agreed, and chopped the $4.2 mill out of their budget
- -- which had a marvelous effect on BATF's behavior for several
years.

(BATF has attempted to strike that appropriation restriction
every year since, including this year, and has often specifically
attempted to get permission to computerize the sales records of
former dealers.)

In a Feb. 6 letter to Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho), Director
Magaw said BATF agent Hynes' comments were "misunderstood." He
said BATF had received a lot of mail as a result of my Shotgun News
article, and that what Hynes was referring to was "indexing of
records of former firearms dealers."

But during Feb. 15 hearings before the House Treasury
Appropriations Subcommittee, Treasury Undersecretary Ronald K.
Noble had a more disingenuous "explanation" for violating BATF's
appropriations restriction. The records they are computerizing "by
the semi truck load" aren't dealer records, he assured Rep. Ernest
Istook (R-Okla.), but records from former dealers.

Rep. Istook didn't buy it: "You're claiming that Congress gave
you a loophole that you could drive one of those semis through!"

The law and Treasury's appropriations restriction are clear,
but in an anti-gun rights Administration, they thought they could
get away with the violations -- as they did at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

But BATF must have been stunned by the NRA's full page ad in
this morning's Washington Post. It's a huge, dramatic picture of
MP-5 machine gun-equipped BATF agents in helmets, goggles and flak
jackets coming right at the reader.

The two-inch type proclaims: "TELL THE CLINTON WHITE HOUSE TO
STAY OUT OF YOUR HOUSE."

The subhead says BATF "has not only lost public trust, but
deserves public contempt."

The text slams BATF for "intimidation and harassment ...
fabrication of criminal charges, even deadly assault ... and ...
the Attorney General's proven willingness to use lethal force
against innocents."

"If the Clinton Administration does not rein in this rogue
agency, then Congress should step in and abolish it altogether."

Those are strong words. It's an issue that has been
discussed, and even proposed, for years. Clearly, attempts to
reform BATF haven't worked.

The problem has been that other Federal law enforcement
agencies didn't want BATF's cowboys because, as the head of Secret
Service once told me, "Mix dirty water with clean water, you get
dirty water."

Maybe Congress should teach them Spanish and make them
immigration control officers along the Mexican border.

******************************************************

Legal authority? They are the government and you are not. The last worry the government has is following the law. Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. the gloves are off and they are waiting for January of 2009 to get even with us.

 

[22-rimfire]

If there is such a database, it is just more reason to purchase legally through private sales when possible. I keep track of whether or not I complete a 4473 when purchasing a firearm.

I have never seen proof in writing that a national database is being created by the ATF, FBI, Homeland Security, or Attorney General. Lets have some proof.

As far as purchasing firearms at gunshows, you will go through exactly the same process at the gun show that you would if you purchased from a regular gun shop/store. That process is dictated by State and Federal laws. Sometimes private parties have tables at shows and if the state laws do not forbid the sales (such as in PA), then you purchase without the 4473 and the NICs check.

Prior to the NICs check becoming active, my state had a waiting period on handguns. The purpose of the waiting period was not to keep you from walking out the door with the purchase but to give time for law enforcement to do the checks. At gunshows, you paid extra for an immediate background check at the show and if you passed, you walked out the door with the firearm.

 

[El Tejon]

.22, so admissions by the ATF that they are doing so are not enough? I'm not sneaking into the West Virginia facility for photographs.

RIDE, you keep using the term "vendor". What do you mean by this?

Do these "vendors" have FFLs or not?

 

[MS .45]

In Mississippi, if you buy from an FFL dealer then they will do a background check no matter where they are located at the time of purchase(i.e. gun show, their shop, or thier home).

 

[Reddbecca]

I've lived in Kansas a couple of years now. There's no state law mandating that a seller at a gun show conduct a background check, but there's a federal law stating that licensed dealers at gun shows need to.

If I went to a gun show and my neighbor was selling off his collection I could pick and buy whatever I wanted and that would be all there was to it. But if an FFL from the next town over was there and selling something I'd have to fill out a 4473 form and get an OK.

 

[22-rimfire]

I would love to spend time at the ATF facility in WV. Admissions.... good point, but lots of people say lots of things that are not technically true. I guess what I want is it posted on the ATF website.

 

[hotpig]

If you buy from me at a gunshow I will call in the ncic to the state. Your 4473 is put in my file. ATF has no possible way in the world to know if you purchased the gun unless they check my 4473.

The state does not know if you purchased a gun either. All that they know is I called for an approval number. They never check to see if the transaction was completed.

Tracking ammo sales are not even possible by any means. That's just ridicules.

 

[RIDE]

RIDE, you keep using the term "vendor". What do you mean by this?

Do these "vendors" have FFLs or not?

Sorry, I guess what I meant by "vendor" is anyone with a booth at the Gun Show... I would imagine that the vast majority of those with a booth are FFL's and not average "Joe" citizens.

To me, I could care less if the ATFE "says" they have a list or not... The truth is we all know they are keeping the gun owner info whether they admit to it or not.

I've lived in Kansas a couple of years now. There's no state law mandating that a seller at a gun show conduct a background check, but there's a federal law stating that licensed dealers at gun shows need to.

If I went to a gun show and my neighbor was selling off his collection I could pick and buy whatever I wanted and that would be all there was to it. But if an FFL from the next town over was there and selling something I'd have to fill out a 4473 form and get an OK.

Thanks for the info! Hopefully I'll find some "neighbors" selling of their collections... I'd really like to have a lower percentage of my collection on the NICS list (again, whether they "say" they keep a list or not)

 

[mp510]

Whenever you buy a gun fromo an FFL holder, they execute a paperwork set and a NICS background check.

Private sales vary by state. In Connecticut, all sales at gunshows are required to fill out the state paperwork and get a background check.

 

[kellyj00]

ya, no problem. You have to fill out one piece of paper if it's an FFL, nothing if you're buying non-FFL.

What gun show? Where's it at?

Jason Kelly
Valley Center, KS

 

[heypete]

As for the ATF maintaining records, remember that FFLs must keep 4473s for 20 years before they can be destroyed.

If the business closes, gets rid of their FFL, goes out of business, etc. they must box up and send all their 4473s to the ATF for record keeping. What the ATF does with those records, I don't know, but I would imagine they label the boxes with the dealer's name and put it in a warehouse in case they need to trace guns used in crime.

There's been a lot of guns sold since 1968, and I'm sure a fair number of gun shops have gone out of business, so it wouldn't surprise me if they had a lot of records.

What they mean by "computerizing" isn't really clear...if they simply scan them into PDF format, that might make it easier than storing a zillion paper documents and making it easier to protect them from damage or loss (such as fire, flood, etc.). I doubt they've hired people to type all the information into computers, and since there's a ton of people with bad handwriting, I doubt OCR software could comprehend the writing. They probably scanned in paperwork and sorted it in folders on the computer based on year of sale. If a gun needs to be traced, and they have the out of business dealer paperwork scanned in the computer and they know what year it's sold it, they could still flip through all the pages manually on the computer, but without having to dig out musty boxes from a warehouse.

It's surely not the end of the world, and I doubt they have the resources or desire to use those records for nefarious purposes, no matter how evil we make the ATF out to be.

 

[RIDE]

ya, no problem. You have to fill out one piece of paper if it's an FFL, nothing if you're buying non-FFL.

What gun show? Where's it at?

Jason Kelly
Valley Center, KS

Thanks Jason.



The Gun Show is Sat. & Sun. April 21st and 22nd.

At the Kansas Coliseum in Pavilion II.

* Sat. April 21 • 9:00am to 5:00pm
* Sun. April 22 • 9:00am to 3:00pm

 

[Just Jim]

What people haven't figured out is that when you give government the ability to charge you a fee for buying a gun that fee will always go up. Ask someone from Nevada or Oregun what the fee started as and what it is now. Then figure out what it will be 10 years from now.

Buy your guns now and save yourself alot of money.

jj

 

[Old Fuff]

In Arizona sales made by FFL dealers require a #4473 form, and unless you have a current Concealed Weapons License in good standing the dealer will have to make a background check. The location of the sale doesn't make any difference in the requirements.

On the other hand, private sales between individual residents do not require any record keeping or background checks.

This causes the anti-gun control crowd to get their undies in a knot.

They are pushing to "close the gunshow loophole" and require background checks on private sales becase they know that private (unlicensed) sellers cannot make background checks! The net effect would be that all sales would have to go through a licensed FFL and require a #4473 form.

As El Tejon as pointed out, for years the BATF has been putting #4473 forms from out-of-business dealers into a database. If or when the Democrats pass a national registration law the BATF&E will quickly pick up past #4473 forms from current dealers to add to their database. The flaw in their grand plan is all of the unrecorded private sales that go on that don't leave a paper trail. That's why they are determine to end private sales - starting at gun shows.

So when someone says, "I don't see anything wrong with having private sellers get a background check made on a potential buyer," ask them, "what if private sellers couldn't have a background check made?" Because that's exactly where we are at. :banghead:

 

[RIDE]

Hence the reason I'd like to buy from private individuals as much as possible. The problem is, you can never (almost) find exactly what you want for sale from an individual.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[El Tejon]

RIDE, you just have to attend more gun shows.

 

[RIDE]

Which is a whole lot of fun... But from what I've seen... 99% of the firearms for sale are from FFL's... am I wrong?

 

[Ohioan]

WASHINGTON, D.C. (March 1) -- Last spring BATF Special Agent
Pat Hynes gave ABC Day 1 host Forrest Sawyer a tour of their new
West Virginia records center. "Right now there's 20 million (out
of business gun dealer) records here," he said. "We've already
computerized 60 million."

They're admiting that they're keeping the records of CLOSED dealers. They're not keeping records of every deal ever done. They'd have to look at the forms I filled out and the dealer kept.

That being said, they've probably seen my name before. The shop that i've bought a few guns from was one of the shops charged by Bloomberg for selling illegally or whatever. Well, they sold to an individual who filled out the form, then that individual broke the law and gave the gun to a gun runner. But, it's all their fault!

 

[davera]

Most of the shows I visit are mainly (95% or more) FFLs. Although with practice one can find private sellers tucked away here and there. Sometimes they have something I am interested in ... sometimes not.