Background checks at guns shows?
- Thread starter jfountain2
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another okie
Member
Let's avoid the term "licensed dealer." It's letting the antis set the terms of the discussion. If you are a dealer, you must have a license or you are breaking federal law.
alsaqr
Member
At most OK gun shows they put a stamp on the back of your hand so you can get back in. When there is a gun show I make a day of it and visit the local pawn shops. There is a pawn shop owner in Lawton who rails against the "gun show loop hole" to every one who comes in his shop after a gunshow. This same guy supported Dirty Dave McCurdy for the US Senate.
Bingo!!!
The other side of it...
You live in PA and you put a gun up for sale on The High Road in the classifieds.
Some guy responds to your add and says he'll give you $150 for your old shotgun. Since he is also in your state, actually only about a half hour away, you agree to go ahead and sell that gun to him face to face to help him avoid paying a transfer fee.
At that point, what you don't know, is that he is a convicted child molester who has been surfing the net and checking the local classifieds looking for a face to face deal on a pump-action shotgun. Now that he's out after his last five year sentence, he's looking to get a pump action and cut it down so it will fit in a gym bag, then go find the vicitms who testified against him. He's planning to get some payback.
Without a background check, how could you possibly know that?
How would you feel if the police showed up three days later with your now sawed-off shotgun in hand and questioned you about how it was used to kill three teenage girls?
Wouldn't you have preferred to find out the guy was a convict and then turn him over to the police before he could harm anyone.
Technically, you probably are in the clear because the law is worded that you can't sell to someone whom you know to be unable to own a gun legally. Still, I know my conscience would bother me in that situation.
And before anyone says it, yes, criminals sometimes still do try to sneak through a background check at gun stores. My local shop has the Sheriff's deputies across the street on speed dial for such occasions.
Personally, as long as it really is instant, doesn't keep any permanent record of the gun's make model or serial number, and doesn't cost anything, I don't see how the background check violates anyone's rights.
I'd actually like to be able to run the checks myself to save the buyer the cost of the transfer fee and I also think they should be funded by the government because no one should have to pay to exercise a right. The background check should be able to be ran by anyone who has access to a phone.
I don't see it as begging the FBI to allow me to sell a gun to someone, I see it as the FBI actually doing their job and helping us to keep criminals from getting guns.
You live in PA and you put a gun up for sale on The High Road in the classifieds.
Some guy responds to your add and says he'll give you $150 for your old shotgun. Since he is also in your state, actually only about a half hour away, you agree to go ahead and sell that gun to him face to face to help him avoid paying a transfer fee.
At that point, what you don't know, is that he is a convicted child molester who has been surfing the net and checking the local classifieds looking for a face to face deal on a pump-action shotgun. Now that he's out after his last five year sentence, he's looking to get a pump action and cut it down so it will fit in a gym bag, then go find the vicitms who testified against him. He's planning to get some payback.
Without a background check, how could you possibly know that?
How would you feel if the police showed up three days later with your now sawed-off shotgun in hand and questioned you about how it was used to kill three teenage girls?
Wouldn't you have preferred to find out the guy was a convict and then turn him over to the police before he could harm anyone.
Technically, you probably are in the clear because the law is worded that you can't sell to someone whom you know to be unable to own a gun legally. Still, I know my conscience would bother me in that situation.
And before anyone says it, yes, criminals sometimes still do try to sneak through a background check at gun stores. My local shop has the Sheriff's deputies across the street on speed dial for such occasions.
Personally, as long as it really is instant, doesn't keep any permanent record of the gun's make model or serial number, and doesn't cost anything, I don't see how the background check violates anyone's rights.
I'd actually like to be able to run the checks myself to save the buyer the cost of the transfer fee and I also think they should be funded by the government because no one should have to pay to exercise a right. The background check should be able to be ran by anyone who has access to a phone.
I don't see it as begging the FBI to allow me to sell a gun to someone, I see it as the FBI actually doing their job and helping us to keep criminals from getting guns.
Cliff47
Member
I just got back from a local "closed" gun show (you have to be a member to buy/sell/swap firearms, ammo and accessories are still good to go), where I found a pistol that one tableholder was selling (and he made me a killer offer, which I took up before my jaw could hit the ground), not only that but he took a personal check. Since I belong to the "club", my badge did the vouching for me, and I showed him my DL and CHL, just to keep things on the up-and-up, should any of the security people be watching (protocols, you know). I know that if my check does not clear, that I have to do some 'splainen to not only the seller, but may face some action from the club management.
I would not expect to be having a personal check accepted at an "open" show by a private seller. I come prepared with cash (which always works, with proper ID).
I have no problem with having the NICS thing run from a dealer sale, but having a NICS check run when your own "club" already does a background check on members (for the private sales, as allowed and defined by BATFE) seems redundant.
I would not expect to be having a personal check accepted at an "open" show by a private seller. I come prepared with cash (which always works, with proper ID).
I have no problem with having the NICS thing run from a dealer sale, but having a NICS check run when your own "club" already does a background check on members (for the private sales, as allowed and defined by BATFE) seems redundant.
another okie
Member
Goon's point is worth discussing.
I believe the answer is that if that possibility bothers you, then you shouldn't make private sales.
But that doesn't mean they should be illegal. Just because there is a chance of something bad happening doesn't mean we need Big Brother to step in. Adults should be able to weigh the risks and decide for themselves. Perhaps many will decide only to sell to people they know. That's reasonable.
I believe the answer is that if that possibility bothers you, then you shouldn't make private sales.
But that doesn't mean they should be illegal. Just because there is a chance of something bad happening doesn't mean we need Big Brother to step in. Adults should be able to weigh the risks and decide for themselves. Perhaps many will decide only to sell to people they know. That's reasonable.
And he's going to tell the truth when he's arrested, because he's a truthful, honest, upstanding, stand-up kind of an ex-con, right?
If you every transfer a weapon to an ex-con and that weapon is used to commit a crime, my guess is that you will get some pretty extraordinary scrutiny. I have enough faith in our legal system to believe that the facts will eventually come out, and you will be exonerated.
But the cost and the time it might take may be directly related to the honesty of a violent criminal.
Does he have anything to lose by trying to incriminate you, and offering to testify against you? Even if the story is patently bogus, it could be a headache.
Mike
Mike
RPCVYemen - Another great point.
I don't have a whole lot of faith in the legal system.
Nothing against cops, ATF, FBI, etc. - I'm sure that the vast majority of them become LEO's thinking that they'll be getting the opportunity to solve crimes and protect people.
But it just seems to me that the system itself is more concerned with maintaining order than with true justice.
Because of that, I'd imagine that a private seller in that situation would still be in a whole lot of trouble.
I can also see the point about it being a choice rather than making background checks on private sales a requirement. I guess that would be a better way to go about it, but as far as I know, it's difficult if not impossible for a private seller to run a background check on a potential buyer. But I can also see situations where it would be entirely unnecessary to run a check - like if your father in law wanted to give you, an honest upstanding citizen, a hunting rifle for your birthday.
Sounds like maybe just enabling and encouraging checks would be a better solution than requiring.
I don't have a whole lot of faith in the legal system.
Nothing against cops, ATF, FBI, etc. - I'm sure that the vast majority of them become LEO's thinking that they'll be getting the opportunity to solve crimes and protect people.
But it just seems to me that the system itself is more concerned with maintaining order than with true justice.
Because of that, I'd imagine that a private seller in that situation would still be in a whole lot of trouble.
I can also see the point about it being a choice rather than making background checks on private sales a requirement. I guess that would be a better way to go about it, but as far as I know, it's difficult if not impossible for a private seller to run a background check on a potential buyer. But I can also see situations where it would be entirely unnecessary to run a check - like if your father in law wanted to give you, an honest upstanding citizen, a hunting rifle for your birthday.
Sounds like maybe just enabling and encouraging checks would be a better solution than requiring.
jrfoxx
Member
Agreed. If you choose to sell to someone you don't know, or don't know well, and aren't comfortable with doing it without a check, there should be a free, instant way to run one. The fact that there isn't such a thing, is, IMHO, yet more proof that background checks and gun control have nothing to do with actually stopping criminals, but is simply designed to be a form of control by the government, and another "hoop" to jump through to discourage people from buying guns.
If it really was about stopping criminals, and saving lives, the the govt and anti's would happily support letting private sellers call into NICS to make a check on someone. The system is already in place for dealers to use, so it's not a cost issue, and it's not like it's too technical or complicated for us "peons" to be able to use it, so they really have no excuse not to, other than that doesn't fit their goals.Notice they DO want to make all gun sales go thru an NICS check,but they want you to go thru a dealer only, which now adds a transfer fee some people wont want to pay (and possibly a 4473,which is a parer trail some people don't like. I'm not sure how a private transfer thru a dealer usually works. never done one), and thus discourages some sales.Seeing a pattern here?
they could have all sale have an NICS check, and it could be quick, easy, free, and involve no paperwork, thus most people would be more than happy to spend 30 seconds on the phone in their kitchen to cover their butts and comply with the law.This would help them do exactly what they CLAIM they want, which is just to keep more guns out of BG's hands (due to the seller not knowing a guy was prohibited, nothing will stop theft and people who will gladly sell to criminals and don't care), but they wont do it. instead, they try (or have succeeded) in a more complicated, time consuming, 4473 involved, extra fees involved system. The only possible reason for it I can see is that it is all about discouraging sales, and/or creating a paper trail with a 4473, receipt from a dealer, or what have you, and not about having a way to do it cheaper, quicker, for free, and without paperwork, that very few people would have an issue with.
JMHO
another okie
Member
If it's difficult to run a background check, and you are uncomfortable making a sale without one, then don't make the sale.
It's a sort of free country, and no one can make you sell a gun at all, let alone to someone you don't know or who gives you the creeps.
It's a sort of free country, and no one can make you sell a gun at all, let alone to someone you don't know or who gives you the creeps.
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