Gunman shoots 3 in Detroit day-care center

[Andrew Rothman]

NOW can we start arming the teachers?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/28/daycare.shooting/index.html

Tuesday, September 28, 2004 Posted: 1:17 PM EDT (1717 GMT)

(CNN) -- Detroit police searched Tuesday for a man who opened fire in a Detroit home day-care center, critically wounding three people, including a 3-year-old child, officials said.

Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings told reporters that the man was wearing a black jacket and black pants and was carrying a steel blue, automatic gun. huh?

She said two women, ages 41 and 22, were shot and were in critical condition, in addition to the 3-year-old.

A 7-month-old was also in critical condition, "probably as a result of being dropped," the chief said.

"It appears as though this is not random," Bully-Cummings said of the shooting.

She said witnesses reported that the man came to the door, "words were exchanged" and then the man went inside, shooting.

 

[Blackcloud6]

How can this be Ella? Day-care centers are Pistol-Free Zones for CCW holders in our great state? So a CZF must have some sort of magical protection, right? No criminal would dare to go to one of those!

 

[Feanaro]

carrying a steel blue, automatic gun. huh?

Automatic probably refers to a pistol. That used to be a common name for one, or so I have been told.

 

[Edmond]

How can this be Ella? Day-care centers are Pistol-Free Zones for CCW holders in our great state? So a CZF must have some sort of magical protection, right? No criminal would dare to go to one of those!

You mean criminals don't follow the laws in your state?

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I talked to Officer Jones in the DPD PIO -- it was a blued 9mm handgun.

I suggested he give the reporter a call and strighten him out. He said he would do just that.

Oy.

 

[jefnvk]

Next you will hear her talking about how the extension of the AWB would have prevented this. And her pushing for the MI AWB.

You mean criminals don't follow the laws in your state?

Well, if they did, they probably wouldn't be criminals

 

[boofus]

They should really pass a law against shooting toddlers.

Make it illegal to get in a car and drive to a child care center with intent of commiting murder.

Ban looking at children if you are about to murder them.

Make it illegal to point a loaded gun at a child.

If only we had more laws people wouldn't murder each other! /sarcasm off

 

[GigaBuist]

All the myriad of gun laws we have accomplished here was insuring the shooter that his victims would be unarmed.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Couldn't have been any ordinary 9mm. It was an "automatic," after all. Besides, they need to get some AWB mileage out of this. Watch for the media to start portraying this like it was an Uzi machine pistol or one of those terrible full-auto TEC-9s or something. They'll find some way to spin the story to make it appear that if the AWB had not been allowed to die, this event would not --- COULD not --- have happened.

 

[wmenorr67]

Home daycare?

Was it a licensed daycare in a private home? If so does the law still effective? Couldn't the homeowner own firearms and defended themselves?

 

[mordrid52]

Although the reporter probably had a different agenda in mind, the term auto (or autoloader) is correct when refering to self-loading pistols. The term semi-automatic is really not correct when refering to pistols even though every one uses it nowadays to avoid confusion with full auto weapons. After all, it is the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol, not the .45 Semi-Automatic Colt Pistol.

 

[tc300mag1]

To bad about the kids but like this is a big surpise with the way detroit has been this year.

Maybe if they would actually partol the street and arrest the scum bags to send um away it might get better but i wouldnt bet on it

 

[mete]

I'm sure it's the ex-husband or ex-boyfriend ,it happens all the time !!

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I know what you're getting at, mordrid, but you're wrong. A semiauto pistol is NEVER referred to as an "automatic weapon."

Anyway, I emailed the reporter:

You wrote: "He was carrying a blue steel automatic weapon, Bully-Cummings said."

"Automatic weapon" means a machine gun. Is that what it was?

The terminology is confusing sometimes. A semi-automatic pistol, like the ones carried by Detroit police officers, are sometimes referred to informally as ".45 autos" or "9mm autos," but they are semi-automatic.

Thought you'd want to clarify this for the print edition.

He wrote back:

Cops say you’re wrong. Thanks.

Arrogant enough for ya? I replied:

Respectfully, you gotta talk to smarter cops. Yes, a semiautomatic pistol is sometimes called a "automatic," but the term "automatic weapon" means, exclusively, a machine gun.

Check an encyclopedia:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761585290/Automatic_Weapon.html

Automatic Weapon, firearm that loads rounds automatically from a clip or magazine and continues firing as long as the trigger is pressed.

Or another:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Firearm
Repeating, Semiautomatic, and Automatic Weapons
A firearm that can load multiple rounds as the weapon is re-cocked is considered a repeating weapon. A firearm that automatically recocks and reloads the next round after each shot is considered a semi-automatic weapon. An automatic (or "fully automatic") weapon is one that automatically recocks, reloads, and refires as long as the trigger is held down.

The anti-gun "Americans for Gun Safety" uses the same definition:

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/safety/gloss_a.html#automatic

automatic

The working mechanism of a firearm that feeds cartridges, fires, extracts and ejects cartridge cases for as long as the trigger is fully depressed and cartridges remain in the feeding system. Compare semi-automatic.

Even the Brady Campaign agrees:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=awb
Q: What is the difference between an automatic and a semi-automatic weapon?
A: An automatic weapon (machine gun) will continue to fire as long as the trigger is depressed (or until the ammunition magazine is emptied). A semi-automatic weapon will fire one round and instantly load the next round with each pull of the trigger.

Have I convinced you yet?

Listen -- I've been a reporter, so I know it's impossible to be an expert in everything. That's why you have to ask people who are experts. So if you don't believe me yet, call a gun shop or the police armorer or range officer and ask, "What is an automatic weapon? Is a 9mm pistol an automatic weapon?"

And do let me know what they say.

Thanks!

We'll see whether he belongs to the "don't confuse me with the facts" crowd or not.

 

[Standing Wolf]

If only we had more laws people wouldn't murder each other!

Aw, heck, yes! We need at least 137 laws for every man, woman, child, cat, and dog in the nation to keep us safe.

 

[Ewok]

The Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press make no mention of the type or appearance of the firearm. I hope Detroit Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings is looking for the killer, not the gun (or a white loner in a white van ).

 

[GigaBuist]

Was it a licensed daycare in a private home? If so does the law still effective? Couldn't the homeowner own firearms and defended themselves?

I haven't done much research on this, since I'm not in any way, shape, or form involved with day care -- but my understanding from my CCW class a bit over 3 years ago was this:

Even if you're a lawful CCW holder and your wife ran a daycare center in the home you were NOT allowed to carry a weapon on the premises while there were children around.

It may even be unclear about when there are children around -- but I presume even a liberal judge would let you slide if you shot an intruder at home, after the day care center was closed down. That might be preusming too much though!

It was made very clear that even if it is your OWN home you CANNOT CCW while there. I'm not sure if that's tied to the CCW laws or child care laws directly.

It's just another law made with a knee-jerk reaction under the permise that guns around kids are always bad and must be controlled.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Nope -- the freep is still calling it "a blue steel automatic weapon."

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm520_20040928.htm

Your link is an AP story that probably got added to their site automatically. The one above is the Free Press reporter with whom I exchanged emails.

 

[Ewok]

WXYZ is using the same description.

 

[Wayne D]

After all, it is the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol, not the .45 Semi-Automatic Colt Pistol.

You know, he's got a good point. Did Colt not know what they were doing when they named their cartridges? Or, is it that definitions or maybe perceptions have changed over the last 90 some years?

 

[Ewok]

Auto-loader is not the same as automatic weapon.

 

[Ewok]

Hey Matt, you could always call the chief's Crime Stoppers hotline at 800-773-2587, asks for Operation Gun Stop, and anonymously tell them that Ben Schmitt has <mumble>knowledge of</mumble> an automatic weapon....

 

[mordrid52]

Matt Payne wrote:
I know what you're getting at, mordrid, but you're wrong. A semiauto pistol is NEVER referred to as an "automatic weapon."

You are, respectfully, wrong. Semi-automatic has become the standard term to refer to automatic pistols (and automatic shotguns like the 11-87) in this politically correct and gun-ignorant age we live in, but that doesn't make it correct or 'automatic' incorrect.

Browning's patent for the 1911 is for a 45 caliber Automatic Pistol, not a semi-automatic one. In the introduction for Browning's patent for the Colt Woodsman (which you can read here ), JMB specifically states

Another object of the invention is to produce an automatic pistol specially adapted for accurate target practice[...]

Automatic pistol, not semi-automatic. Unless you want to claim that John Moses Browning is wrong, of course.

Colt has also been referring to their pistols as automatics for a century or so. 25 Automatic Colt Pistol, 32 Automatic Colt Pistol, 380 Automatic Colt Pistol, 45 Automatic Colt Pistol. You can go here and read scans of old Colt manuals. The term automatic is used frequently, but semiautomatic isn't.

You can go here and read the Army Field Manual circa 1940 for the 1911/1911A1. They're frequently referred to as automatic pistols, but I don't see any references to any semi-automatic pistols.

You're more than welcome to refer to them as semi-autos (and you'll be in a very large majority these days). But to claim that it's wrong to call them automatics is absurd. Next you'll no doubt try to tell me that inflammable means not flammable.

 

[Waitone]

Although the reporter probably had a different agenda in mind, the term auto (or autoloader) is correct when refering to self-loading pistols. The term semi-automatic is really not correct when refering to pistols even though every one uses it nowadays to avoid confusion with full auto weapons. After all, it is the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol, not the .45 Semi-Automatic Colt Pistol.

And that is precisely why we have a hard time with the media. The media is interested in short, pithy descriptors usable in a variety of situations. We ourselves are confusing. Police are perceived as experts which may not be accurate. Reporters puke at the thought of picking up the phone and calling a representative of the NRA. Gun shops are off limits for the same reason. Josh Sugarman has access to the media and deliberately creates loaded terms for media to use. Sugarman deliberately confuses definitions.

We are losing the debate because we don't see the debate going on.

For me the issue is real simple.

There are two kinds of handguns--revolvers and slide guns, period. No debate as to auto or semi-auto. Simply revolvers or slide guns.

 

[Ewok]

WDIV is reporting:

A K-9 unit is assisting in the search for the shooter, who Bully-Cummings described as a black man in his 20s, about 6 feet tall, between 200 and 230 pounds, wearing dark clothing, and carrying a blue, steel semiautomatic weapon.